If salvation is the gift of God..

March 31, 2005

Let's look at this from a different standpoint. Does 1 John ch 1 say that we have to sin... does it ever say that once you are saved you must sin. Since it does not straight out say this, what is it saying?

Let me begin by asking this, as soon as a man is saved is there sin in his life right then? According to 1 John it would seem so - taking your interpretation. However Christ washes away all of our sins upon salvation... so who's right? I don't think they can both be right because washing away indicates that no sin is attached. Is there another interpretation that can be taken for this passage? I believe there is. If you look at verse nine, it seems to be that if you confess these - sins that you would be lying to deny - He will take them away. But if He takes them away you can't say that they're not there because you would be lying.... doesn't seem to make sense does it? In verse ten it gives a better background to see the others by. He's rephrases and says that we're all in need of His forgiveness. To use these scriptures to say that we have to sin goes against all admonishings of not erring and how God says that we can overcome any trials that come our way. I just see too many scriptures being compromised with certain interpretations of this scripture.

For romans 9, well like I said I don't have the best of answers for you yet still working on it. But as above, I see scriptures being compromised with this. Namely that anyone who calls on Him shall be saved (understood that there also has to be confession with the mouth).

No the tense was not addressed. This tense means an ongoing conditional applicability. This is the reason that it was written in the tense it was.. to show that it was not a given.

--Him who will or him who runs but God who shows mercy--

This could also mean that we could not save ourselves. If we don't call on the Lord then there is no amount of doing good works(willing and running) to get in, only God's mercy can provide salvation. Remember this is a work in progress, simply trying to work out for myself what this passage is saying in context with the rest of scripture. I'll keep studying this neighborhood of scripture and try to have something soon. Until then I'll keep spouting half formulated thoughts lol.

God bless

March 31, 2005

I was looking over 1 John when it hit me, this passage can not be talking about sinning. Let me explain, when an individual is saved.. at that moment, according to your interpretation, this person could not say they have no sin, but they would not be sinning. Now we take your question

Did Paul say that he did not sin after receiving Christ?

He did not say that he did. I don't see where he did. The passage in verse eight (which can better be seen by verse ten) can not be referring to him sinning because it (verse eight) is a verse that can be apply to all christians (it seems) at all times in their walk (immediately upon salvation when no 'sinning' is taking place).

So yes, according to 1 Corinth 10:13(only one example) I do believe that it is possible to live in the Spirit and that He is great enough to be able to strengthen me or show me the exit point of any trials that come my way.

God bless

JLW001 · March 31, 2005

Calvin, I think you have totally missed the point of 1st John. We are continually saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. Now, imagine a point in time when a child of commits a sin.

But, first let's talk about what sin is. Remember Jesus didn't come to do away with the law, but to magnify it. He transformed the law from governing actual physical acts into a law governing your heart. He said if you look upon a woman in lust then you have the same as commited adultery with her. Do you see the transformation. The two commandments Jesus gave us were to love God above all things and to love others as we love ourselves.

Now, love is outgoing concern for others. That means, because I love you, that I care what happens to you and your comfort the same as I care about what happens to me and my comfort. Now, the awareness of sin jumps by leaps and bounds. Did you hold the door open for that young woman leaving the grocery store with 3 kids and two grocery sacks. If you didn't then you violated God's law of love. Did you lust after a very nice looking woman for the few moments that you saw her walk by? If you did, then you commited adultery. Did you see someone with a new car and say I'd really like to have their car? Didn't you just covet in your heart?

I know that you remember Jesus speaking about sin in this way and His two commandments of love, so I will continue my discussion assuming that you agree with me about sin. Lets go back to that point in time when a child of God commits a sin. They are covered by the blood of Jesus and according to 1st John all they must do is repent and then they will be cleansed. Do you see the continual aspect of Christ's Blood and the continual aspect of salvation. Every day God's mercy is new. I think that's a quote from a Psalm, but I don't know for certain. Everytime that a child of God opens up to Him and repents of their sin, then they are cleansed again, just like the first time they did that. In fact some believe that when you are saved that you past sins and your future sins are forgiven. However, I believe that 1st John shows that repentance is necessary for the child of God. And if you are a child of God you will repent of your sins.

I apologize for the long posts, but I'll try to summarize.

1. Sin is no longer just physically breaking the ten commandments. Jesus magnified the law to include the heart in the matter. He said, "If you look upon a woman and lust after her, then you have committed adultery".(paraphrased)

2. 1st John reveals that even the children of God sin while they are in the physical form. However, God is faithful to forgive our sins when we repent.

Its very simple really. God saved us. That's it. We were saved, we are saved and we will be saved. We are continually within the grace of God. Why, because of something we do? No, because of what Jesus did. Grasping this povides such peace in your life, because we have that assurrence of salvation. It is not a license to sin as you would. Because a child of God loves God above all things and does not wish to sin, even though as God's children we do. Yet when we are transformed fully into the perfection, then we will receive the guaranteed freedom from sin.

March 31, 2005

I agree with you that His promises are new everyday and that if we do not show love in all we do then we have committed sin since love will not violate any of the laws. I also agree that repentance is necessary for a child of God. However, what I don't see is how 1 John answers this question

Did Paul say that he did not sin after receiving Christ?

This is the question I was addressing which was in response to my saying that a Christian does not have to sin. I still do not see where this point has been made in the scripture.

I agree with point #1 but disagree with point #2. I think that I've shown that if it's referring to sin a christian committed then it contradicts a newly saved christians washing away of sin. Since it can not apply to this individual and it is an all encompassing statement (applicable for all christians all times of their lives) then it must mean something else which I also think I've adequately shown (not trying to be condescending just if any new folks read they know to go back to old posts).

As far as the tense of certain scriptures, I apologize about jumping to conclusions. I just skimmed over that part and didn't see that you had made a response.

Seems to me that you feel the aortic tense is referring to someone is saved in the past so they are saved now and will be in the future. I could see this if salvation were the only word in the aortic. However as it is, it's the qualifier (i.e. believing faith following and so on) that is in the aortic. As a result whether or not the qualifier is true throughout different walks of life is whether or not the gift is applicable. So as you can see I do not feel that the tense has been properly justified. However I may still be missing your point... I can be slow or heard headed sometimes so I am still open for admonishment lol.

God bless

Khristeeanos · March 31, 2005

BTW Dime, the reference in Hebrews that quotes the OT DOES prove OSAS .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously didn't read it, did you?

Here is what it says:

Deuteronomy 31:6-8 & 14-16
You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake Me and break the covenant I made with them. On that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide My face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and difficulties will come upon them, and on that day they will ask, 'Have not these disasters come upon us because our God is not with us?' And I will certainly hide My face on that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

Khristeeanos · April 2, 2005

BTW Dime, the reference in Hebrews that quotes the OT DOES prove OSAS .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You obviously didn't read it, did you?

Here is what it says:

Deuteronomy 31:6-8 & 14-16
You are going to rest with your fathers, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering.

Khristeeanos · April 2, 2005

Another point is that Hebrews 13:5 has a verse before it. It is a warning given to Christians that God would judge them if they commited adultery!!!

4Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

JLW001 · April 2, 2005

Calvin, I apologize for not being more clear on the statement about Paul sinning or not. I meant that there is a verse in which paul states that...

(Romans7)

14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

So, if Paul sinned because sin ruled his body, then we also sin for the same reason. But, beginning in chapter 8 Paul writes that there is no condemnation for one in Christ Jesus, as evidenced by the presence of the holy spirit, as evidenced by the fuits of the spirit. Saying that you have faith is the same as saying that you have they holy spirit, because the fuits of faith are those fruits of the spirit.

As far as the aortic sense goes it does apply to the continuality (if that's a word, LOL) of the state of believing and salvation. Those that have believed, that believe, and will believe, will be saved (in the aortic sense). That "ability" to maintain belief is called faith. Faith comes from God. He gives it to those He chose or those He draws to Jesus. Once a child of God is saved God does not remove that faith He gave them to believe. He grows the faith and makes it prosper!

Now you may have examples of people that you think were saved that have gone astray. I would ask you two questions.

1) Do you know that they were saved? All you saw was thier vocal confession of faith. And maybe you saw some fruits. But can you know the hearts of others?

2) Do you know for certain that they are not saved even now? We all have different roads to go down in our lives. Some people have roads more difficult than others. Can we make a judgement that is indeed reserved for God?

Praise God in the highest for His mercy and His patience.

Dime Ministries,

Surely if you sin God's judgement will be upon you. Yet, there is an intercessor for our sins. His name is Jesus. He did not simply die for the past sins of believers, but also the future sins that both John and Paul reveal we who are saved continue to commit until we are freed from our mortal shells.

Hebrews 5 also reveals that God will not withhold chastisement from those of His children who are disobedient. God reveals that Jesus was chastised so that He might learn obedience.

Just because we are not condemned for sin, as is written in Romans, does not mean that we will not experience chastisement from God when we do sin. That chastisement will lead us in the direction that God wishes for us to go. Remember that sin is no longer just an act, but a matter of our heart. If a married man looks upon a woman and lusts after her then he has committed adultery and sullied his marriage bed. The same with a woman. So, in that light Hebrews 13:5 shows that, without Christ, we all would surely face God's righteous judgement. Even with Jesus as our intercessor, we will still receive chastisement for our disobedience.

Thank our Father in Heaven for His mercy and His Son!

Edited April 2, 2005 by JLW001

April 4, 2005

I apologize if I don't answer everything sufficiently, I'm at work on break and have just read your post. Had a beautiful if windy weekend so did not take the time to get on. Ok....

I was wondering if you were referring to romans 7. We had a study meeting at church in which this was brought up. One individual brought this up as proof that we must sin while another had a different take. This verse is meant to show that we can not live without sin no matter what our intentions are or how hard we try. If you look at verse eighteen (that is in my flesh) this can easily be seen for we are not to live in the flesh but in the Spirit. So it looks like a hopeless cause... but wait God once again gives us a way out. Here is verse twenty-four and five of the same chapter (last two verses):

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

25 I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

and then the very first two verses of ch. eight:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

So to recap we see that ch seven says that we as humans are hopelessly doomed to sin if left to our flesh. However in the last two verses and the first two of ch eight, we see a way made to escape sin. What is this way, why it's the Spirit through Jesus Christ. So we can see that if we live in the Spirit, as Paul did (it also says that flesh can do no good thing. we know that paul did many good things so we can assume by this that he did live according to the Spirit) we are not bound to the law of sin and thus can be Holy as He is Holy.

I would like to answer more but we are on chow so I'll try to answer when I get home of when I get back.

God bless

April 4, 2005

I see what you are saying, however the tense is on the words that are conditionalities (I can make new words too lol). So, from what I have researched, the aortic tense applies to words written in the tense.

Now as far as drawing, your interpretation causes problems for me. For one it takes away free will in choosing and secondly it excludes those who are not 'made' for the purpose of salvation. As a side note, I don't believe God will punish someone for choices they were never able to make. I think those scriptures can be interpreted for instances lake pharaoh and such and I believe that these individuals still have chances at repentance after His will has been accomplished because of other scriptures (all who believe and such). Now for the drawing, I've been doing some looking at finding other explanations for this and here's a little of what I've found:

http://www.fwponline.cc/v19n1switzki.html

This type of study is one which is over my head at this point but not so much that it can not be understood. Please read while I study this and some others.

As for the instances of salvation, I do not speak of other peoples' experiences so much as mine. "I write you these things so that you might know that you have everlasting life" I was saved, I know this. However I made choices that led me down the same path as that of the prodigal son's (notice in passage says that son was dead but is now alive but he only became alive after his choice to change which falls in line with aortic tense of hebrews 6). After a time I had a change of heart, thank God. I know that I had no faith during this time.

Now we get to people who argue on the side of osas that say someone who is saved and then backslides was never saved in the first place... I agree with you in saying that this is judging people and is a type of judgement that we are not to do which is why I use my own circumstances.

so..

1. yes I was saved

2. I know that I was not saved. As stated above I had no faith and was not walking in the light etc.. This was not just a dry period but good section of years during my life.

May I ask where you see in the scripture where it says He died for our future sins? I would just like to state that there is a difference between dying for future sins of individuals and dying for an individuals' future sins. So if you can show an instance of the latter then I would be greatly appreciative.

I agree with you one hundred percent when you say that God chastises us. However I also believe just as fervently that God has given us free will and allows us to exercise this right. I believe that Hebrews six was written for a purpose and that admonishments can be ignored (do not err, walk in the light, hold faith to end and so on). I believe that an individual can become callus to the wooing of the Holy Spirit and can reject his/her faith. This line of thought joins up with the paragraph above with my life so I'll let this horse go.

God bless