By Faith Posted May 30, 2015 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 94 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 110 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 30, 2015 No, by Faith... We are not justified (placed in right standing with God) by works, at all. God justifies us (makes us righteous) by faith alone, in Christ alone. Rom. 3:20, 28; says that we are justified by faith apart from works. It is an explicit, unmistakable statement by Paul. James is not talking about our justification before God. He is not talking about an act of God. James is using "justification" in the sense of affirmation/confirmation. James' point is that Abraham and Rahab had faith that was affirmed/confirmed by their works. In other words our works justify us before men in the sense that our profession of faith is shown to be genuine, it is affirmed by corresponding action. did not Jesus say he who is faithful in little, more is given, or who is faithful in unrighteous material goods (Mammon) then would qualify for true riches, or He that is faithful with another mans, more shall be given? Does faith justify us before God after He tells us to step out and move 4 states away to a place we have not been, and tells us He has great things there? So we by faith tell everyone that we have to move and we know God has a great plan. However, because the kids should finish in their school having friends, and because we can't find a buyer for our house at the price we want and we looked in that other state, and there did not seem to be any good jobs, we never step out and move as the right time did not ever seem to come upon us. We keep telling people saying we have faith, just waiting on the right time. years go by and we never do move. Does that still qualify us for what God had planed for us 4 states away? Faith alone is dead, and does not qualify us for anything. Even the man hearing Paul had faith to be Healed by what Paul was speaking, but he was not healed until Paul helped him saying stand up and walk. Think about it. Be blessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcbsr Posted June 2, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 415 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 353 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Faith alone is dead, and does not qualify us for anything. So you're saying that Abraham was not saved in Gen 15:6, seeing as at that point he had faith but no works. Is that about right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 By faith... I am not talking about faith justifying us. You are completely missing the point. James is not talking about faith justifying us. James' point is that what we DO justifies our claim that believe in Jesus. Our faith is what is justified; it is not the justifying agent. James is not talking about faith for salvation. James is saying that if I claim to believe and trust in Jesus, that profession of faith in be borne out and justified (or affirmed) by corresponding actions that agree with it. Abraham was saved by faith, and it was when Abraham offered up Isaac that his faith in God was affirmed. We see the faith of Abraham in the fact that he was willing trust God by offering up Isaac. Works didn't justify Abraham before God for salvation. His works displayed the salvation he already had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FresnoJoe Posted June 3, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 207 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,651 Content Per Day: 1.17 Reputation: 5,761 Days Won: 4 Joined: 01/31/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/04/1943 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Grace For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 ~ ...we can have "faith alone" but will not inherit the kingdom of God.... ~ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24 Jesus Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 5:3-4 Produces The Fruit I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 5:5-6 Beloved Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 3, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Share Posted June 3, 2015 There is no contradiction between James and Paul, at all. Paul when referring to justification in say, Rom. 3:28, is referring to our justification by faith before God. We are not justified/saved by works, but by faith. James, on the other hand is not speaking on how we are justified before God. James is talking about our profession of faith in James chapter 2. James is talking about the justification or affirmation of our professed faith. "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James is drawing the connection between what say and what we do. Abraham was justified by works. But that is not justification before God. James is saying that we can know the authenticity of Abraham's faith because of his works. Same goes for Rahab. The point that James is making is that our claim to have faith in God is only justified when it is accompanied by corresponding works. James is a very practical book and is more concerned with practical Christian living. It is not concerned so much with how we are saved (as is the case with Romans), but rather it is concerned with how we live out our faith in the context of community. Martin Luther was wrong. Well spoken Shiloh, I fully agree. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcbsr Posted June 10, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 415 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 353 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 By faith... I am not talking about faith justifying us. You are completely missing the point. James is not talking about faith justifying us. James' point is that what we DO justifies our claim that believe in Jesus. Our faith is what is justified; it is not the justifying agent. James is not talking about faith for salvation. James is saying that if I claim to believe and trust in Jesus, that profession of faith in be borne out and justified (or affirmed) by corresponding actions that agree with it. Abraham was saved by faith, and it was when Abraham offered up Isaac that his faith in God was affirmed. We see the faith of Abraham in the fact that he was willing trust God by offering up Isaac. Works didn't justify Abraham before God for salvation. His works displayed the salvation he already had. What you claim James was saying was not what James ACTUALLY SAID. For example, Once again: When was Gen 15:6 fulfilled? Both Paul and James quote it. Gen 15:6 talks about justification. So both Paul and James are referring to the same "justification", contrary to your idea that they are referring to different kinds of justification. And while you say, "James is not talking about faith for salvation", what James ACTUALLY SAYS is "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith SAVE him?" James 2:14. So, yes, James is talking about salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcbsr Posted June 10, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 415 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 606 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 353 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 If Martin Luther claims that James was in disagreement with Paul, and that the book of James doesn't belong in the Bible, Martin Luther is a false teacher, and as I said before BCBSR, if you want to continue down that slippery slope, I will play devil's advocate and side with James and say Paul was the false teacher. How will you prove me wrong? How can you prove that Acts along with the epistles of Paul are really divinely inspired? The truth of the matter is, the entire 66 books in the canon are the Word of God, and if the only way you can make your argument is to say otherwise, I don't accept anything you have to say. As a matter of fact, I have completely been turned away from anything to do with Martin Luther, including the denomination named after him. If he believed that kind of heretical doctrine, I can't trust him on anything. First all concerning the bad attitude you have towards Bereans, it is written, "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Acts 17:11 As for chosing between Paul and James, Paul was an apostle personally chosen by Jesus Christ. James was not an apostle. He doesn't have the authority of override Paul's teachings. And Paul proved himself with miraculous signs of an apostle. James didn't. Even James endorsed Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles, which is, by the way almost the entire world. So, yes, there is plenty of basis of chosing Paul over James. And nepotism doesn't trump apostleship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Luke was not an apostle, Mark was not an apostle, Jude was not an apostle. Should their writings be rejected? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted June 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2015 Blessings.... We are not Saved BY our faith,we are Saved BY Gods Grace,through our faith ,,,,,,,,,,,,, Shiloh has explained the difference in the context of both Books,the Book of James & the Book of Romans ,,,,,they do not contradict one another,they are completely different themes but they compliment each other beautifully,,,,,,as the inerrant Word of God always does,,,,,,,,, Martin Luther was just a man,his interpretation was not accurate,,,,,,,as Shiloh said,,,,,,,I agree,,,,,,anyone who believes there is any contradictions anywhere in the Bible does not believe that it is the Living Word of God Almighty,,,,,,,,,,,to think that way shows us that he believed men wrote without Inspiration of God,& as Butero has said,this is false teaching...... Not one single Author trumps another,,,,,if this was so then the folllowing Scripture verse is also wrong King James Bible All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Timothy 3:16 Every single Author has written Gods Timeless Truth down for us all,we either believe all of it or none of it,,,, With love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted June 11, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,586 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Shalom, all. Umm.... Actually, “saved” and “salvation” are the wrong words for what you all are talking about. One should be using the words “being justified” and “justification.” “Saved” and “salvation” are typically words for the RESCUE of God’s people (Israel) when Yeshua` (Jesus) returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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