The Wrong "Temple Mount?"

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem with the location on King George Street is that it doesn't have the holiness that a real holy temple would have.   Desecrating a synagogue would not have the blasphemous effect that it would if we were talking about a temple on the temple mount.

 

No one thought that Israel would be reborn, literally and it has already happened just as Scripture says. 

 

And to be honest, Marilyn,  your Greek is a little off kilter.   The word naos is also used of the Temple in Jerusalem in the NT.   It can, depending on context refer to pagan shrines or other meeting places, but context and word usage always trump lexical word meaning.    It is used of the temple in Jerusalem in Matt. 23F:16-17, 23:35   and John 2:19-20.    It is also used of the inner sanctuary of that same temple numerous places in the NT  like Matt. 27:5.

 

So it is not the case that naos refers to something different than hieron.  They can both refer to the temple on Moriah.   The rebuilt temple will be somewhere on the temple mount.  That's the only way it makes any sense.

 

The temple in Ezekiel will have its own property separate from the tribal allotments according to Ezekiel 48.

[Marilyn C]

Hi shiloh357,

 

I believe that when Jesus spoke of the Temple, (rebuilt) then He used `heiron,` while the Apostle Paul could have also, but he used the word `naos,` to show the difference.

 

Also, have you noted that the temple in the tribulation (Rev. 11: 1 & 2) is also referred to as `naos.` (Naos - a fane, a shrine, temple Not words to describe the Temple on Mt Moriah)

 

Marilyn.
 

Edited June 2, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Guest shiloh357]

The problem is that naos is not used exclusively one way or the other.   So even in II Thess, the use of naos does not necessarily mean something other than an actual temple (bayit ha mikdash)on the temple mount.   You really haven't proven that the context in II Thess. must refer to some kind of other building like a synagogue or some other kind of shrine. 

 

I have shown places and can show many more where naos refers to the temple itself not some other kind of building.   While it can refer to a synagogue, it is also used of the temple as well.   So trying to argue that the temple the antichrist desecrates is anything other than the temple is rather futile and simply unconvincing.  

[Marilyn C]

Hi Shiloh 357,

 

As we know `naos,` can be `a dwelling place, inner sanctuary or pagan shrine.`

 

However when Jesus refers to the temple built on Mt Moriah he uses the word `heiron,` meaning sacred, priestly edifice, temple.

 

That to me speaks volumes.

 

Marilyn.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Marilyn C

[Guest shiloh357]

again, the Bible uses naos to refer to the temple on the temple mount in many places.   That Jesus used the heiron in some places, doesn't negate everything else.

[Marilyn C]

Hi shiloh357,

 

I was trying to download pictures of the great Jerusalem Synagogue. Quite spectacular. It was modelled after the Jewish temple. 

 

As to `hieron` & `naos` I see we don`t agree. I have an `Analytical Concordance by R. Young,` which has those scriptures using `hieron` in a group & those scriptures using `naos,` in a group. Thus it is quite easy to see the difference. As far as I can see Jesus used the word `hieron` to refer to the temple on Mt. Moriah, as it was the sacred priestly edifice. The word `naos` can mean the `inner sancturary` (as well as temples elsewhere) which it was used for at times, but I don`t see Jesus using it for the whole temple area, for He said `hieron.`

 

`Then Jesus went out & departed from the temple (hieron), & His disciples came to show Him the buildings of the temple, (hieron).(Matt. 24: 1)

 

While the apostle Paul specifically, (by the Holy Spirit) uses the word `naos.`

 

`...the son of perdition, who opposes & exalts himself above all that is God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple (naos) of God, showing himself that he is God.` (2 Thess. 2: 3 & 4)

 

Maybe we will just have to wait & see, (from our higher position, as we are both pre-tribbers).

 

Bless you bro, & good chatting with you, Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

[Bible2]

shiloh357 said in post 21:

 

The word naos is also used of the Temple in Jerusalem in the NT.

 

That's right.

 

In 2 Thessalonians 2:4, like in Revelation 11:1-2, the original Greek word (naos: G3485) translated as "temple" is the same word used for the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem in Matthew 23:16, Matthew 23:17, Matthew 23:21, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 27:5, Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 1:9, Luke 1:21, Luke 1:22, Luke 23:45, and John 2:20.

 

Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews, after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them, and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

 

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to (mistakenly) perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being "defiled".

 

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

 

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming, there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the 1st century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17), and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

 

--

 

One reason the 3rd Jewish temple of Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government has been very careful to protect the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque ever since Israel took military control of the Temple Mount back in 1967. For the Israeli government knows that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel were to destroy these buildings (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the current state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely.

 

While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic city-state of (what they could call ) "the True Israel". They could establish this within the walled Old City of Jerusalem (which contains the Temple Mount), and build on the Temple Mount a 3rd Jewish temple before which they can restart the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, and perfectly keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic law, and banish every non-kosher person and thing from ever entering within Old Jerusalem's "Holy walls".

 

(This could point to another reason that the current, secular government of Israel doesn't want to let the ultra-Orthodox Jews build a 3rd temple: out of fear that the secular authority of the Israeli government could subsequently get undermined. For once temple practices resumed and a priesthood came into power, a creep toward theocracy could ensue in Israel, where priests and rabbis would become powerful enough to replace the secular leaders in Israel. So the secular leaders could want to simply place a hold on any drift in that direction by forbidding the building of a 3rd temple.)

 

Something which could help to bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to the point of desiring to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in "Samaria and Judaea" (also called the "West Bank"), and in eastern Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. (Any such handover won't happen without a removal of Netanyahu from power, possibly by assassination.) For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and completely destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

 

(A fear of the ultra-Orthodox Jews resorting to violence could be one of the reasons that the Israeli government refuses to hinder Jewish settlement activity in Samaria, Judaea, and eastern Jerusalem. It could also be one of the reasons that the U.S. government has been convinced by Israel to back off from requiring any such hindrance. But if down the road, pressure from the Arab masses for a Palestinian state becomes so extreme that it begins to threaten to overthrow U.S. hegemony over the Arab world, the U.S. could decide to force Israel to surrender all of the Jewish settlements to a Palestinian state.)

 

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements at some point in our future, something else which could help to tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

 

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place which He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount, and to let it remain under the religious control of the vile Muslims? Let us all rise up now, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

 

With such rhetoric, accompanied by his working of amazing miracles (cf. Matthew 24:24), a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" in Israel could whip up the ultra-Orthodox Jews there into a religious frenzy, so that they will all with great zeal, and without any fear, march in their tens of thousands upon the Temple Mount, and take total control of it, and then rejoice there and dance and sing holy hymns to God "for His great and mighty Victory".

 

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is the occurrence of a series of great earthquakes in Jerusalem which will severely damage the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa Mosque, to the point where they will stop being used. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see this as (in their words) "Clearly a portent from God that he will no longer allow Muslims to trample His Holy Mountain. We must now reassert total Jewish control over it and rebuild His Holy Temple there".

 

Something else which could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark, because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see a retrieval of the Ark as (in their words) "An unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

 

Fearing that some ultra-Orthodox Jews could nonetheless somehow discover the top secret location of the buried Ark, and go there in the dead of night and dig it up without a permit from, or any notification to, the Israeli government, the government could have placed armed guards and surveillance cameras to watch over the buried Ark's location day and night.

 

But if the buried Ark's location is found out by some ultra-Orthodox Jews, they could round up tens of thousands of their fellows, all armed with machine guns, and they could suddenly swarm the location, overwhelm any armed guards there, and hold off any subsequently-arrived IDF troops long enough to get the Ark out of the ground. Once it is out and the IDF troops actually see it, it is unlikely that they are going to try to stop the ultra-Orthodox Jews from parading it to the Temple Mount; they will be in such awe.

 

Also, once the ultra-Orthodox Jews make it to the Temple Mount and begin completely destroying the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, it is unlikely that the IDF troops are going to open fire, whether with lead bullets or rubber bullets, on their fellow Jews, slaughtering or injuring hundreds or thousands of them. Also, increasing numbers of IDF officers are very religious, so they could order their troops to stand down. And if some non-religious officers convince their troops to employ tear gas in an attempt to simply disperse the ultra-Orthodox Jews without harming them, this could be thwarted by the ultra-Orthodox Jews having brought along gas masks (which, ironically, could have been issued to them by the Israeli government itself, back when there was a fear that Saddam Hussein would send Scud missiles into Israel with chemical-weapons payloads).

 

So the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the complete destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque at the hands of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. And so the Israeli government could be unable to prevent the subsequent, retaliatory destruction of the state of Israel at the hands of enraged Muslim armies and militias.

[Guest shiloh357]

I am sorry  Marilyn, but you are simply wrong.   I have shown Scriptures where naos is used for the temple on the temple mount.   That trumps any argument you could make that says naos is not referencing the temple.

 

Your argument simply  doesn't hold water.   Naos is not used only one way.  Word usage trumps word meaning.   That's a simple rule of hermeneutics.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Shiloh 357,

 

So when you see Israel building this temple that the anti-Christ desecrates, could you please let me know, in case I miss it.

 

Marilyn.

[other one]

Well, perhaps a little archaeology will uncover the truth... if they can dig there.

If you read his book   "Temple"   you will discover they have been digging where he things the temple was.

The article is interesting but his book is down right intriguing...  I just finished it a couple of weeks ago when we were on a travel....   he makes a pretty good argument when you get all the details in the book.