Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

If you ignore context anything is possible. Since the context is the end of the age it is the same 'last trump'. You display an impressive logical ineptitude in this. Where do you suppose the angels with the trumps in Revelation got the trumps they sound? Second hand music store? Garage sale? Walmart?

The only timing I see in 1 Thess 5 is "before wrath".  Since wrath 'has come' at the 6th seal and the 7th trump in Revelation, we see timing here too.

The question is now who owns the trumpets: the question is, who sounds the trumpets. If we get right down to bare facts, God owns everything made up of atoms.  You nailed it! It is the timing "you see." Many people have a problem seeing the intent of the Author.

If wrath "has come" at the 6th seal, and if we are saved from this wrath - God has made no appointments for us with it - it should be obvious we are out of here before the wrath.

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, inchrist said:

Post trib, prewrath, mid trib, pretrib and pan trib are all looking for Christ coming. Your statement makes absolutely no sense.

 

Essentially what you are saying is Pretrib is now a salvation issue. That if you dont believe in the pre trib you are not saved.  This is false.

 

Whether one is pre, mid or post does not determine a persons salvation. 

 

Not true: a postribber will be watching for the start of the "trib" or watching for the Beast. It is very simple: they believe they will see either one of these things before they will see Christ.

If a true believer is left behind: will the seal of the Holy Spirit inside that makes them a born again person leave? Not a chance: they will still be born again: but they will be a left behind "born again" person. It is NOT a "salvation" or born again issue. But it COULD be if they have a weak moment and accept the mark.

[iamlamad]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, inchrist said:

The law and the prophets were until John:" (Luke 16:16)

Were is in italics which means the translators added that word in. However if you bothered to look for a parallel scripture to find the missing word, you would of found:-

 "For all the prophets and the law  prophesied  until John." (Matthew 11:13). 

Matthew recorded the verb "prophesied"which Luke missed out. All this scripture is telling us is that the law and the prophets prophesied until John, because they all prophesied about Jesus, who began his ministry in the days of John the Baptist. 

They prophesied where he would be born (Micah 5:2), that he would be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), when he would be born (Daniel 9:25), how he would die (Isaiah 53), and many other details of his life, and that is all this scripture (Luke 16:16) is saying. It is nothing at all to do with the law being done away with after John the Baptist.

All these prophecies were true, but what was the intent of the Holy Spirit in this verse when He caused Matthew and Luke to write?

Pulpit commentary:

"Up to the period of John the Baptist," said the Master, "the old state of things may be said to have continued in force. With him began a new era; no longer were the old privileges to be confined to Israel exclusively; gradually the kingdom of God was to be enlarged, the old wall of separation was to be taken down. See, every man is pressing into it; the new state of things has already begun; you see it in the crowds of publicans, sinners, Samaritans, and others pressing round me when I speak of the kingdom of God."

Adam Clark Commentary:

The law and the prophets continued to be the sole teachers till John came, who first began to proclaim the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and now, he who wishes to be made a partaker of the blessings of that kingdom must rush speedily into it;

People's New Testament Commentary:

The prophets and the law prophesied until John. For the meaning we must turn to Luke 16:16, where the same words occur with the addition, "since that time the kingdom of God is preached." Then first began the announcement that John was the way-preparer, the forerunner of the King, that the kingdom was at hand, that the old dispensation was about to close.

Coffman Commentaries:

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

This signifies the end of all previous dispensations in John the Baptist, the notable person upon whom the hinges of God's economy began to open into the New Covenant.

Barnes Notes:

Verse 13. All the prophets, etc. It is meant by this verse that John introduced a new dispensation; and that the old one, where the prophets and the law of Moses were the guide, was closed when he preached that the kingdom of heaven was at hand.

Fourfold Gospel Commentary:

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. The Old Testament was the work of a long series of prophets, and this series was closed by John the Baptist.

John Wesley notes:

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John - For all that is written in the law and the prophets only foretold as distant what is now fulfilled. In John the old dispensation expired, and the new began.

 

It seems then that I have a lot of agreement in the commentaries.

[Last Daze]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have heard people say, "don't preach to them - you will drive them off." I wondered, off where? To hell #2 or hell #3? No, the unsaved are already going to the only hell there is.  So when an opportunity arises, and people are willing, we teach them the gospel. 

It is the same thing here: it is my belief, backed up by scripture, that if people are not looking for His coming, He will not be coming for them.  It is a very serious business, being left behind.  I am only desperate to save people from the horror of the days of GT - especially when God has made a way of escape.  It is mostly for the readers. The people that post here have their minds made up.

I hope you noticed, in the parable of the virgins, 50% were left out?  The doorway will close at the rapture.  People will be screaming, "why am I left behind?  I don't want anyone left behind.

No one spoke truth more purely than Jesus, yet He neither badgered people nor instructed His disciples to do so.  Why don't you just speak your piece and let the Holy Spirit do His job?

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13

The virgins were left behind because Jesus did not know them.  It had nothing to do with their eschatology.  It had everything to do with their lifestyle.  They were not doers of the word and consequently were not wise.  If they had been keeping His commandments, He would have known them.

I can't overemphasize the point that being ready as Jesus instructed is accomplished through lifestyle worship of Him, putting His words into practice.  This is what made the virgins wise.  This is how He knew them.  Perhaps we should focus more on encouraging other believers in their walk with Jesus instead of insisting they agree with our eschatology.

 

[iamlamad]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, inchrist said:

 

 

Quote

 This age of grace will END. The door will close. Some will be left outside knocking and saying "let us in" but that door will remain closed

Wrong, God is still expecting people to repent

As can be seen in the 6th trumpet

The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands

And in the 5th bowl

but they refused to repent of what they had done.

Did God expect people to repent in the Days of King David or King Solomon, or farther back in the days of the Judges? Of course He did. And He will hope people will repent during the 70th week, which is for Daniel's people. In other words, "repentance" is not dispensation specific.

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, inchrist said:

 

 

Quote

 and time will be the Day of the Lord and 70th week.  The Jews will build a new temple. A covenant  - a ONE WEEK covenant - will be confirmed that will fulfill Daniel's 70 weeks: it will be the 70th. Don't doubt me on this: it is absolute truth confirmed by the entire book of Revelation. 

False

Covenant in The Hebrew Concordance:

in the sense of cutting(like 1254); a compact made by passing between pieces of flesh

A compact made by passing between pieces of Flesh

NOT false: today covenants are created by writing in a paper and then signatures added of those joining in that covenant.

Strong's wrote, "in the sense of cutting" meaning not all covenants are created by passing between flesh.

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, inchrist said:

A biblical established pattern.

The word berith" in Young's Analytical Concordance. In the Pulpit Commentary, Vol. 29, p. 275,  states that "Bereeth" is only used in connection with a Divine Covenant. It is never used to designate a "league" with any other power or force but is always reserved to describe a covenant between God and man. 

This word is never once used to describe a covenant between man and man or man and antichrist.

It seems God always has exceptions:

Hos 10:4  They have spoken words, swearing falsely in making a covenant: thus judgment springeth up as hemlock in the furrows of the field.

Hos 12:1  Ephraim feedeth on wind, and followeth after the east wind: he daily increaseth lies and desolation; and they do make a covenant H1285 with the Assyrians, and oil is carried into Egypt.

Jos 9:6  And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league H1285 with us.

Jdg 2:2  And ye shall make no league H1285 with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?

So once again you are proven mistaken. There will be a 7 year covenant confirmed - but it may be done behind closed doors so no one sees it but God and those involved.

Edited July 27, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, inchrist said:

Quote

 The two witnesses will be Old Testament saints: probably Enoch and Elijah. The day of the Lord and the 70th week are for JEWS and Hebrews - DANIEL's people - not for the church. That is why the rapture comes before the 70th week.

The two witnesses are the two candlesticks & the two olive trees.

They are not Enoch & Elijah.

They are Gentile Believers & Jewish Believers in CHRIST.

You are fooled once again. God means two MEN from the Old Covenant. That is clear in their description.

Please explain how Gentile believers (do you mean ALL of them?) and Jewish believers (again, do you mean ALL of them?) lay dead for three days?  Your theories are sometimes hilarious!

On 7/24/2017 at 0:19 PM, inchrist said:

You know Elijah appeared with Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration,, so we know they already have an incorruptible body. They cannot put on a mortal body (corruption) again to be killed by the Anti-Christ! 

This is just one more theory that will be proven wrong.  You have a long list of them now.

Edited July 26, 2017 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

If there is no avoiding the tribulation period and the wrath coming upon the earth, then why did Jesus state this....

Luke 21:34-36 (NKJV) “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Not an out and out, firm support to a pre-trib position, but it sure offers credence to the concept.

Edited July 26, 2017 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

6 minutes ago, inchrist said:

What if its a matter of perspective....

They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Can we conclude that irrespective of location whether on earth or in heaven those with the seal of God escaped that particular verse?

 

And therein lies the rub.  Differing on whether there is a removal of the righteous before this period and those that come to faith during this time are those that are sealed, or that there is no removal and those that have the seal of God are just a continuation of what is already.  

Indeed, it is a matter of perspective.

I would contend that, no, it is not irrespective of location.  Jesus said the gates of perdition would not prevail over the church, yet, when the False Messiah (the son of perdition) is allowed to do so, he makes war with the saints and prevails over them.  Now which is it?  No prevail or prevail?

Edited July 26, 2017 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

If there is no avoiding the tribulation period and the wrath coming upon the earth, then why did Jesus state this....

Luke 21:34-36 (NKJV) “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Not an out and out, firm support to a pre-trib position, but it sure offers credence to the concept.

First, tribulation is not wrath. The terms are not synonymous. Great tribulation is a period of time of unspecified length within the 2nd half of the last week, put to and end by the Coming of Jesus. When Jesus arrives the elect are gathered and the Wrath of God, which Jesus brings, falls on the unbelieving world until the week ends, perhaps around 5 months duration. Since the statement "pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass" is spoken in the context of "that Day" clearly Jesus is speaking of the wrath to come, God's wrath, the wrath of the Lamb, and not the purifying fire of the reign of the beast. Further Jesus says, "it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth" and right after says to "pray always" to escape and lends weight to the idea this is the "Day" of Jesus coming and the wrath of God. Of course this is true. While enduring 'great tribulation' there is still time to be saved from eternal residence in the lake of fire. The wrath of God is final. Too late. No that anyone ending up in the final days of the end of the age during the Wrath of the Almighty was likely to repent in any case. I imagine the population left on earth after the gathering hates everything about the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 

So, to beat the drum a little louder...The last week is divided up by three major time periods and two major events. They are in order: The beginning of sorrows, The event of the A of D, great tribulation, and The 2nd Coming(event) and the wrath of God. I know it can be broken down even further but the above are named and ordered by Jesus in Matt 24.

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

And therein lies the rub.  Differing on whether there is a removal of the righteous before this period and those that come to faith during this time are those that are sealed, or that there is no removal and those that have the seal of God are just a continuation of what is already.  

Indeed, it is a matter of perspective.

I would contend that, no, it is not irrespective of location.  Jesus said the gates of perdition would not prevail over the church, yet, when the False Messiah (the son of perdition) is allowed to do so, he makes war with the saints and prevails over them.  Now which is it?  No prevail or prevail?

The beast prevails for a time as allowed by God for a distinct purpose, purification, either the individual repents and is purified or they do not. These are the saints, individuals, the beast will make war with and overcome. The purification process for the corporate church, made up of individual saints, will weed out all spot and blemish and the church will stand forever even as spots and blemishes within the true church were removed, or prevailed over. If we understand our destiny as believers is spiritual and eternal, we can see that even if the body is overcome the spirit lives on by the grace of God purified by the blood of the Lamb. The beast may overcome the physical body but all the power of hell cannot defeat the Spirit.