Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Ok, I'll bite...  see if this scripture reference might suggest of a removal of the righteous before the wrath of God is poured out....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
Take Refuge from the Coming Judgment
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Yeshua did say that in His Father's house there were many chambers, and that He was going to prepare a place for the righteous.  If there is no removal of the righteous, what is the purpose of those chambers then?   Window dressing?

You misunderstand: prewrath is VERY true. It is the posttrib that is nonsense. They do not accept that Revelation is in a perfect chronological order and imagine that the wrath of God can be separated from the wrath of Satan in respect to time. The truth is, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, and the murdering of saints at its peak, God begins the vials of His wrath - to shorten those days of great tribulation. In other words, in reality in the book of Revelation, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent: they cannot be separated.

In comparing Paul's 1 thes. 5 where he gives us HIS timing for the rapture, with Revelation I can come up with only one place the rapture fits: a moment before the great earthquake of the 6th seal. I believe that earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction;" an earthquake caused by God raising the dead in Christ.

I further believe that the great crowd, too large to number, seen in chapter 7, IS the just-raptured church.  I further believe that the Day of the Lord begins instantly after the rapture, at the 6th seal, and the 70th week begins with the 7th seal. So the rapture will come before the "tribulation" as many call it.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Last Daze said:

The Father's house a place of hiding?  To me, "hiding" indicates the presence of a clear and present danger.

People that have been there tell us that these chambers face the throne, so while people are in their chambers, they SEE the Father on the throne, and He can see them. In fact, the days of great tribulation WILL BE "clear and present danger." God has made a way of escape. I, for one, plan on taking His way of escape.

Edited July 24, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

Just now, OldCoot said:

Yeah, while Martin Luther has been influential in reforming the Church, and he did recognize what Paul had tried to pound into people regarding Habbakuk 2:4, that the just shall live by faith, Luther stepped on his duffle bag in many areas.

During the dark ages there was NO revelation knowledge.  There was very little knowledge of the scriptures at all, for the people had no bibles in their own language. But slowly bibles were made available and slowly God began to reveal truth. Although Martin Luther received a small revelation, my guess is, the average laymen who studies their bible has more bible knowledge that he did.  John Calvin got some little Revelation but mixed it with nonsense. Arminius got some revelation, but again, did not get the whole truth. Bible knowledge has been steadily growing over the centuries.

[OldCoot]

29 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You misunderstand: prewrath is VERY true. It is the posttrib that is nonsense. They do not accept that Revelation is in a perfect chronological order and imagine that the wrath of God can be separated from the wrath of Satan in respect to time. The truth is, when Satan's wrath is at its peak, and the murdering of saints at its peak, God begins the vials of His wrath - to shorten those days of great tribulation. In other words, in reality in the book of Revelation, God's wrath and Satan's wrath are concurrent: they cannot be separated.

In comparing Paul's 1 thes. 5 where he gives us HIS timing for the rapture, with Revelation I can come up with only one place the rapture fits: a moment before the great earthquake of the 6th seal. I believe that earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction;" an earthquake caused by God raising the dead in Christ.

I further believe that the great crowd, too large to number, seen in chapter 7, IS the just-raptured church.  I further believe that the Day of the Lord begins instantly after the rapture, at the 6th seal, and the 70th week begins with the 7th seal. So the rapture will come before the "tribulation" as many call it.

It is all a matter of timing, and there are many good scholars in both camps.  Neither position is total nonsense. Just a quibbling over details.   I don't worry too much about pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath.  My main concern is post trib and Amillenialism, of which the latter position impugns God's character and says His promises were all lies.

But your assertion shows that there is no differentiation between pre-tribulation saints and those that come to faith in Messiah during the tribulation period. And of the latter, both the OT and NT say that Satan will prevail over the tribulation saints (Dan 7:21 and Rev 13:7), but Yeshua also said that Satan cannot prevail against the church (Mat 16:18).  There has to be two groups in view... pre-trib saints and tribulation saints.

It is true that the last half of the tribulation period is when God pours out His wrath, and we are not appointed to wrath, it also flies in the face of the removal of the righteous, it cannot be known the day.  If the tribulation has started, then we have a counter to tick off regarding that day.   

Edited July 24, 2017 by OldCoot
Darn spell checker!

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The pre-tribbers have changed the meaning of 'the mystery of Christ, mystery of the kingdom of God, mystery among the gentiles, mystery of the church....I lost track of the fabrications required to counter the fabrications of pre-trib.

I hear that. The examples are getting much worse since the 70's. It used to be they at least cited scripture. Now they just say, That's wrong. That's a theory. Rearrange! Etc.

[OldCoot]

True, many of the rank and file did not have the scriptures available or a good knowledge of what was contained.  But, they are not the ones who determined the direction of the church in general.  Most folks then are like most folks today.  Sunday Christians that heard what their pastors told them and that was about it.  The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

True, knowledge of the scriptures has been increasing, but it has also been in lock step with being perverted to match the presuppositions of some, and in far more ways than millennial positions.  

Edited July 24, 2017 by OldCoot

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

It is all a matter of timing, and there are many good scholars in both camps.  Neither position is total nonsense. Just a quibbling over details.   I don't worry too much about pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath.  My main concern is post trib and Amillenialism, of which the latter position impugns God's character and says His promises were all lies.

But your assertion shows that there is no differentiation between pre-tribulation saints and those that come to faith in Messiah during the tribulation period. And of the latter, both the OT and NT say that Satan will prevail over the tribulation saints (Dan 7:21 and Rev 13:7), but Yeshua also said that Satan cannot prevail against the church (Mat 16:18).  There has to be two groups in view... pre-trib saints and tribulation saints.

It is true that the last half of the tribulation period is when God pours out His wrath, and we are not appointed to wrath, it also flies in the face of the removal of the righteous, it cannot be known the day.  If the tribulation has started, then we have a counter to tick off regarding that day.   

To me any attempt to rearrange John's God given chronology is nonsense. I am convinced it is written with a very strict chronology. Rosenthal and Van Kampen had to do immense rearranging to make their prewrath theory work. And it all started because they did not understand the signs in the sun and moon will occur TWICE, first as the sign for the day, and then for the sign of His coming.

"your assertion shows that there is no differentiation between pre-tribulation saints and those that come to faith in Messiah during the tribulation period."  I don't think so. Please show us how. I believe the door will be shut at the rapture, and from that point on, the only way for one NOT a part of the 144,000 to get to heaven will be to keep their faith and lose their head. So I agree, two groups.

The tricky verse is that huge group that "come out of GT." I suspect that God calls the entire church age "great tribulation." Just those two words were not enough to satisfy Jesus. He went on to say the days He was talking about would be SO great there never was and never would be again, so great tribulation. Or perhaps at the time of the rapture enough people are being put to death for their testimony that God will consider it great tribulation at the time of the rapture. One thing is certain, "tribulation" cannot get any greater than if one dies - they cannot be killed twice. For them it was GT.

It is church age from John's day up through the 5th seal. The church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seal for a long time now. But very soon judgment will come.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

You see, what Oldcoot didnt mention is Rosh Hashanah occurs on the 7th trumpet month being the last trumpet month

Rev 11:15

The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,  and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Coronation of our Messiah - Rosh Hashanah.

Christ will be crowned on Rosh hashanah and given the heathen for His inheritance, as well as receiving His Kingdom and glory. Daniel 7:14 and Psalm 2:6 

Please show us this verse by verse: I see no connection whatever to trumpets and months in scripture.

 

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

The witnesses have to pronounce the coming of the Lord in order to gather his bride. Not after.

I suspect that is what they do all through the second half of the week.

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

So WHERE in revelation do we see verse by verse this judging taking place? Do you find it here? No, you don't. You find only the statement. The time has come simply because the Kingdom of the world has been given back to their rightful owner. We see the judgment taking place from this point on.  But we do not see Christ's coming until chapter 19.

[OldCoot]

 Ok. No problem.  Like I stated, I don't worry about it.  Actually, I am a pan-tribulationist.  It will all pan out according to God.  Sure, I generally hold a pre-trib idea within that, but don't really lose any sleep over those that hold mid-trib or pre-wrath positions.  My only beef is with yo-yo mindset of Post-trib, and downright rejection of Amillenialism.  

I don't concur that the church age could be viewed as an application of the  "great tribulation".  It definitely has its focus on Israel, to get them to turn to Messiah, which they will according to Hosea during this time.  And it is another wording of "time of Jacob's trouble" that many view as the final climatic attempt to destroy Israel.  The church, as we know it, really isn't in focus regarding being an entity on the earth after Revelation 3.   Tribulation saints are, but the church isn't.  It (the Ekklesia) is not mentioned anywhere after chapter 3, except in Chapter 22.  There were saints in the OT before the church became an entity at Pentacost, clear back to before the flood of Noah, so saints does not mean the Ekklesia.  This 70th week of Daniel / Great Tribulation scenario has Israel as the main focus along with the 144,000, the two witnesses, etc.  as well as the world rejection of God.  And many passages in the OT show that Messiah is the one who rescues Israel during this climatic time when they call out for the Messiah that they now recognize as the one who came and died.

 

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by OldCoot

[Omegaman 3.0]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, in fact, I have that much to say AGAINST a postrib / prewrath position. It is simply not a scriptural position.

How amusing, that is my position about pre-trib, it has no scripture behind it, only scripture which has been misapplied, mis-understood, and has a heavy dose of inference and optimism imparted to it, but that misses the point I was making. What I was saying, is that this thread, is about the defense of the post-trib/prewrath position, not the attack thereof, but you go right on ahead, don't let me disturb you!

Actually, I suppose I should be thanking you, since it is you and your fellow pre-tribbers, who are largely responsible for the confidence that I have in my current understanding of eschatology.