Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, choir loft said:

What conditions?

Many of the predictions of Jesus and the apostles HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED including but not limited to Revelation 13:3.  That particular prophecy was fulfilled in the 19th and 20th centuries. (Upon request I can cite historic occasions to prove this assertion.)

Your statement is based not upon scripture but upon false interpretations that require a particular sequence.  The sequence is wrong because most of it is based upon the Gregorian calendar, which wasn't adopted by European until October 1582.   Biblical prophecy is based upon the Hebrew calendar and the Year of Jubilee.

Since church types use the Gregorian calendar to reinterpret scripture they will always be wrong.  In actual fact, nobody knows the arithmetic basis for the Year of Jubilee (as admitted by Christ in Mark 13:32-33).  Jesus' remark was based upon arithmetic calculations, not metaphysical events.  Nobody of His generation knew when the calculation of the Year of Jubilee would initiate many events because the beginning of the number of years had been forgotten.  

Jubilee had never been celebrated as the LAW required because Moses died before it could be observed.  Joshua didn't observe it either and in time it was forgotten.

The 'conditions' you mention are related to a sequence of events that are misinterpreted by the RCC and protestant churches that march in lock step with it.

Consider these things carefully and you will begin to understand what a mess we're dealing with.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I literally do not care about calendars. I have no idea how dates are even important in biblical prophecy. Events are important, conditions are important, certain acts are critical, dates are meaningless. 

I don't see the Jewish traditions bearing in any way on future prophetic events. Jesus didn't see it that way either. Jesus said, "When you see the A of D..." That has nothing to do with a calendar or feasts or Jewish tradition. 

Contemporary Christianity makes a big deal out of the Jubilee. Maybe there's something to it. Maybe it's a promise by God He will fulfill. But His people don't follow the concepts and commands of the Jubilee.

Christianity mostly prays, "God, I pray that you approve of everything I'm doing." Not, "God, I trust that your will is being done in my life." imo.

Since the most ignored prophesied event hasn't yet occurred, the A of D, then eschatological prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[JoeCanada]

On 12/30/2022 at 8:26 AM, choir loft said:

Historic FACT teaches the seven year period of the greatest trouble to ever visit Jews IS the holocaust of 1938-1945.  Jew hating antisemitic church types hope for a second holocaust (as they did in the 1930's).  They teach a demonic doctrine of hope for a second visitation of murder and persecution upon innocent Jewish men, women and children.  It is a shame upon the church that God will punish. (Genesis 12:3 & 1 Peter 4:17)

IS IT A CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE TO WISH DEATH UPON ANYONE?

Apparently it is if one is to accept the bovine excrement of current eschatology.   The reader needs to reexamine the lies he or she has been told about Jews and the 2nd coming.   They are hateful and historically proven to be untrue.  It is time for all of us to repent of this particular form of wickedness.

Ask a Jew about this and listen to what they say........      

Read the Bible with fresh eyes and learn something new.

Hi choir loft,

You say...... "Read the Bible with fresh eyes and learn something new"

I absolutely agree with that statement. So.... read:

"Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.  For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.  Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.  In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.  You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle.  For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.

 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

God Will Be King over All

 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one........ Zech 14:1-9

Tell me. Has this happened?

It clearly has not!

The holocaust against the Jews by the Nazi's was European.....  not Jerusalem.

The coming holocaust against Jerusalem described by Zechariah will be the final one. And it will be much worse than WW11 times.

You say.... "They teach a demonic doctrine of hope for a second visitation of murder and persecution upon innocent Jewish men, women and children.

God does not see them as innocent. They rejected Him, and their chidren and childrens children share in their guilt. The day is coming when they will mourn for Him when they realize who He is.

[DeighAnn]

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

Your post rejects the Holocaust as the Time of Jacob's trouble predicted by the prophet Jeremiah and others.

Since the Holocaust was on THE JEWS and not Israel and JACOB is the whole HOUSE, you are correct as I reject that as Jacobs trouble.  

 

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

You offer no documented alternative.  Instead you fill your post with unjustified opinion.  You write phrases such as; "may be when Satan tribulation" or "GOD ISN'T MAD at His own people for doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing."  

Since it is FUTURE, how could I give documented alternative?

Are you saying those GOD HAS BLINDED; He should be angry with FOR BEING BLIND? 

 

 

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

In the second instance you are entirely incorrect.   Jews WERE NOT doing as they were supposed to be doing.  Jesus said so.  Jews & Romans together rejected Christ and crucified Him in humiliation.  As a result the Second Temple, as well as the entire city of Jerusalem, was totally destroyed on Tisha B'Av

DID you miss the FIRST PROPHECY we were given in the BOOK? 

WHO shall bruise HIS HEEL?  Were the ROMANS or the JEWS mentioned?

NO, GOD WAS speaking TO THE SERPENT

THE ROMANS didn't want to kill Christ.  THEY FOUND NO FAULT WITH HIM.

As for the JEWS at that time JESUS TELLS US THEY were of their father the devil, VIPERS, themselves CLAIMING they had never been in bondage, SATAN possessing JUDAS

SO do YOU believe it was the Jews? or do you believe it was those WHO CALL THEMSELVES JEWS BUT ARE NOT?  


Not of the teachings of Smyrna are you?

8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 
It's PEOPLE who claim to know WHAT IS WRITTEN and don't that are responsible for persecution of our brother Judah.  

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

God did not blind Jews so much as they yielded to it themselves.  The same sort of humanistic interpretation of scripture exists today even among all of Christendom - and it's getting worse.

THEY WERE TOO SCARED TO STAND UP AND FIGHT FOR HIM.  That is what THEY DID WRONG.  They didn't want to LOSE WHAT THEY HAD.  

Remind you of anyone today?  Know of ANYONE too scared to STAND, or endure to the end, or suffer to be worthy?  Looking to SAVE their life instead of losing it for HIM? 

PRE TRIB RAPTURED CHURCH.  Sure, they SLIP every now and again and make it something else but we all have heard how BEING LEFT BEHIND is going to be SOOOOO BAD that God has got to 'take them away'.

[DeighAnn]

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

Luke 21:24b quotes Jesus saying, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled"  The prophecy of Christ has nothing to do with gentile and Jewish spiritual blindness and false interpretations of scripture.  Instead it's a prediction of an historic event that has already happened.

DID you FORGET the question that was ASKED?

If that was the end, then THE DEAD WOULD HAVE BEEN RAISED UP and the Millennium temple would be 1900 years old already and the LOF and the GWTJ would have taken place and and and

We don't get to 'reassign a TIME'. to what is clearly given one.  

I am not saying there are not things that took place BUT the lack of all the rest TELLS US IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that it is future.  

Where were did the angels cast out with Satan rule?  Name the 10 powers for which they wore the crowns.  Which sons and daughters were speaking prophesy in tongues so that all the languages of the world understood what was being said? 

We don't get to say 'this one thing happened' so it all happened because by DEFINITION that is adding to or subtracting from what is written.  

[DeighAnn]

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

THE TIME OF THE GENTILES WAS FULFILLED in June 1967 when the IDF liberated the old city of Jerusalem.  To this day the liberation is celebrated during the Israeli holiday of Yom Yerushalayim.  Beginning in the next year, 1968, the fortunes of Christendom began to whither and decline as it has done to this day.

ARE YOU SAYING that there have been NO GENTILES turned to Christianity since 1967?

Are you saying that Jerusalem is free from people who don't believe in the Son of God?

[DeighAnn]

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

The reader MUST remember that ALL Biblical prophecy centers upon Israel - both the ancient people of the Tanakh as well as those of the modern State of Israel.

Israel.  If that could be defined correctly it would solve a bunch of problems, but CHRISTIANS don't seem to be able to GRASP what 'ISRAEL' is being spoken of when

 

On 12/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, choir loft said:

The Bible is written BY Jews, FOR Jews and ABOUT Jews.  

The hope of immortal life presented to all the gentile world is based upon Jewish LAW extended by the GRACE of Christ to anyone who will give Him their allegiance and BECOME JEWS - as in Romans 2:29.

Case in point.

 

[Uriah]

I believe the post trib view.

Pre wrath has the fatal flaws that pre trib has. It requires the rapture to be BEFORE the return of Jesus. Then there will have to be the rapture when He DOES come. This would demand an extra resurrection as well.

I always remind readers that God's people were in Egypt when all of the plagues were unleashed. The plagues of Revelation are reminiscent of those in Egypt.

 

This teaching relies on a single verse

1Thes5:9- For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ  

 

Let's look at a few more verses on this matter.

1Th 4:13- But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15- For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul's aim is to assure the readers that they will be with their loved ones again when Jesus returns.  

Now let's see what the scriptures say about the timing. 

1Thes 5:1- But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Thes 5:2- For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pet 3:10- But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15- Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth  his    garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 16:16- And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 16:1- And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

It is plainly evident that Paul was NOT teaching about people being exempt from going through the worst of the end times, but taught that whether we are alive when Jesus returns or have passed away, our ultimate salvation is in store for us.

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Uriah
sentence posted twice

[JoeCanada]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

I believe the post trib view.

Pre wrath has the fatal flaws that pre trib has. It requires the rapture to be BEFORE the return of Jesus. Then there will have to be the rapture when He DOES come. This would demand an extra resurrection as well.

I always remind readers that God's people were in Egypt when all of the plagues were unleashed. The plagues of Revelation are reminiscent of those in Egypt.

 

This teaching relies on a single verse

1Thes5:9- For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ  

 

Let's look at a few more verses on this matter.

1Th 4:13- But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15- For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul's aim is to assure the readers that they will be with their loved ones again when Jesus returns.  

Now let's see what the scriptures say about the timing. 

1Thes 5:1- But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Thes 5:2- For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2Pet 3:10- But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 16:15- Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth  his    garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Rev 16:16- And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 16:1- And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

It is plainly evident that Paul was NOT teaching about people being exempt from going through the worst of the end times, but taught that whether we are alive when Jesus returns or have passed away, our ultimate salvation is in store for us.

 

 

 

Hi Uriah,

Which post trib view do you hold to, as there are several different versions.

Can you lay it out.....like:

When is the resurrection/rapture in the post trib view?

When does Jesus actually return, and does He return to the earth immediately with His believers (those resurrected and raptured)?

Do you believe that those in Christ will go thru the entire 70th week?

Obviously, scripture support will be needed.

 

[Uriah]

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

When is the resurrection/rapture in the post trib view?

It is obvious that Jesus hasn't returned before the battle of Armageddon because...

Rev 16:15- Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.          Rev 16:16- And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

We see many people in the sky (to meet Him in the air) by looking at...

Rev 19:1- And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

They are given their new attire as seen in...

Rev 19:8- And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

This is the time that He defeats His enemies...

Rev 19:11:- And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The resurrection happens also at this time...

1 Cor 15:52- In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The order is restated here...

1 Thes 4:15- For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thes 4:16- For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thes 4:17- Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

These things are included in...

Mat 24:30- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

20 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Do you believe that those in Christ will go thru the entire 70th week?

If you mean, "Daniel's 70th week", no. The 70 weeks are past. This is my timeline...

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Uriah
left out "He" in sentence

[WilliamL]

On 12/31/2022 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

I believe the post trib view.

Pre wrath has the fatal flaws that pre trib has. It requires the rapture to be BEFORE the return of Jesus.

Pre-wrath is post-trib. It is one version of post-trib.

Pre-wrath says the rapture will be at the return/Parousia of Jesus.

Don't know where you got your ideas from. Certainly not from the pre-wrath I've been teaching here.

On 12/31/2022 at 4:11 PM, Uriah said:

This teaching relies on a single verse

1Thes5:9- For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ  

Pre-wrath is based on far more that this verse. Pre-wrath says that the Parousia will be at the 6th Seal: at which point Christ will take up his elect, and the Wrath of God will thereafter be unleashed.