When was Gen 15:6 Fulfilled?

[bcbsr]

Jesus used "fulfill"  in reference to Scripture to mean, "to bring to fuller expression,"  in Matt. 5:17.  Jesus wasn't referring to prophecy either.   James is not referring to Gen. 15:6 as prophecy, either.  

 

You have a one dimensional approach to Scripture.

 

But not any place the term "scripture was fulfilled", referencing a particular scripture, as James does. 

[bcbsr]

 

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2:23 (NASB)

 

 

And "Brother James"  speaks the fulfillment of that verse with reference to Gen 22 where Abraham did a work of faith and goes on to say, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." 

 

 

[FresnoJoe]

And "Brother James"  speaks the fulfillment of that verse with reference to Gen 22 where Abraham did a work of faith and goes on to say, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

 

 

Beloved, Location Location Location

 

Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

 

You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.

 

And so it happened just as the Scriptures say:

 

“Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

 

He was even called the friend of God.

 

So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone. James 2:21-24 (NLT)

 

And Indeed Our Right With God

 

he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5 (NLT)

 

Is Jesus

 

And since we have been made right in God's sight by the blood of Christ, he will certainly save us from God's condemnation. Romans 5:9 (NLT)

 

And Jesus Alone

 

Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead.

 

For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

 

‘The stone that you builders rejected

has now become the cornerstone.’

 

There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.” Acts 4:10-12 (NLT)

 

~

 

Beloved, Still Got A Beef With The Words Of My God

Words That HE Put Into (My) Brother James?

 

What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?

 

Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing,

 

and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—

 

but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

 

So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless. James 2:14-17 (NLT)

 

Then Taste The Words Of Jesus Himself

 

“And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’

 

“Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.

 

For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink.

 

I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

 

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

 

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

 

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” Matthew 25:40-46 (NLT)

 

And See If They Tickle Your Fancy Any Better

 

The very essence of your words is truth; all your just regulations will stand forever. Psalms 119:160 (NLT)

 

Love, Joe

 

PS: This Post Was Brought To You By The New Living Translation

The New Living Translation, The Word For A Thoroughly Modern Millie....

[Tristen]

 

... This faith was demonstrated in Abram’s willingness to sacrifice Isaac (Genesis 22). Therefore God confirmed and extended His promise....

James correctly used this event as an example that sincere faith goes beyond lip-service. James does NOT say that Abram wasn’t justified before Genesis 22 (as you claim), only that Genesis 22 demonstrated Abram’s response to faith. James simply used this event to exemplify his point - that sincere faith will be reflected in a person’s actions.

 

That's not consistent with how every other instance of the Bible's usage of scripture being fulfilled. Furthermore James claims that what was fulfilled was not the promise of Gen 15:5, but rather Gen 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." James said that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Thus James indicates that Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Gen 22. For according to James Abraham had to do a work of faith before he could be justified. 

 

Prior to Gen 22 Abraham had faith but no works with regards to the promise of Gen 15:5. According to James faith without works is dead and as such Abraham's faith was dead prior to Gen 22. Furthermore James 2:4 "if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" Apparently not according to James. And thus James indicates that Abraham was not saved until Gen 22. 

 

That's an example of interpreting James based upon what James ACTUALLY SAID. Words mean things! People can't see this when they try to read Paul into James rather than read James out of James. 

 

 

Hi Bcbsr,

 

I was curious as to the reason for Shiloh’s initial harsh response. But now I too am also growing suspicious about your motives based on this response.

 

You are being overly pedantic about your interpretation of the English word “fulfilled”. You said, “That's not consistent with how every other instance of the Bible's usage of scripture being fulfilled.”

 

So to begin with, you are equivocating the context. Your argument is not about “scripture being fulfilled”, but about Abram’s justification being “fulfilled”. Therefore, the context of “scripture being fulfilled” has no power to influence the interpretation of the fulfilment of Abram’s justification.

 

The Greek term ‘plarao’ (translated in James as “fulfilled”) can mean a variety of things and is used in a variety of ways – depending on the context. It is alternatively translated as fill, accomplish, satisfy, end, complete, perfect, to make full etc. (that is, exactly the same range of connotations ‘fulfilled’ has in English). So I don’t think it’s fair-minded to rest your argument upon such a narrow interpretation of “fulfilled”.

 

 

 

“Furthermore James claims that what was fulfilled was not the promise of Gen 15:5, but rather Gen 15:6 "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness."”

 

James is clearly quoting Gen 15:6 as you say, but what did Abram believe? We find the explicit answer in the previous verse. Again, I don’t understand how a fair-minded person could simply disregard the immediate context of a quoted verse – as though the context shouldn’t influence the interpretation.

 

 

 

“James said that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

James makes the point that a lip-service faith (aka “faith without works”) is a dead faith; ineffective, even for salvation. Consider how James introduces the concept;

 

James 2:14-17

¹⁴ What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ¹⁵ If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, ¹⁶ and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? ¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

So a faith which says in a pious voice “I’m praying for you brother”, but doesn’t attempt to meet the obvious need is an empty faith. A true faith would put tyres on the car, food on the table, clothes on the body, a roof over the head, buy a new washing machine/refrigerator to replace the broken one and generally walk in the “fruit of the Spirit” (Gal 5:22-23).

 

Note by this introduction that the issue is not about a specific work ‘fulfilling’ the standard of justification, but a general response reflecting the sincerity of a true faith. Subsequently in his argument, James uses a particular example of Abram’s faith being reflected in a specific action. Given the context of James, it seems ridiculous to me to interpret James as saying that justification can only be accomplished through faith and a specific work. That interpretation approach appears to ignore the context completely. In Hebrews, the whole of chapter 11 is dedicated to examples of specific actions demonstrating faith. Yet it would never have occurred to me to interpret any of these examples as necessary for their justification.

 

 

 

“Thus James indicates that Gen 15:6 was not fulfilled until Gen 22”

 

No he doesn’t. He doesn't state (or "indicate") anything about the state of Abram's justification beyond the described example.

 

 

 

“For according to James Abraham had to do a work of faith before he could be justified”

 

That’s not what it says. That is what you are reading into it.

 

 

 

“Prior to Gen 22 Abraham had faith but no works with regards to the promise of Gen 15:5”

 

Again, you are reading concepts into the text that aren’t actually there. James doesn’t make any claim about what happened between Gen 15 and Gen 22. He simply gives one example of Abram acting out his faith (maybe one of many, maybe not – James doesn’t say).

 

 

 

“According to James faith without works is dead and as such Abraham's faith was dead prior to Gen 22”

 

James doesn’t make any claims about Abram’s works or justification between the promise and the example. You are making assumptions about James’ meaning beyond what is actually stated by James.

 

 

 

“Furthermore James 2:4 "if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" Apparently not according to James”

 

That’s because “if someone says he has faith but does not have works”, they have a lip-service faith; a dead and therefore ineffective faith.

 

 

 

“James indicates that Abraham was not saved until Gen 22”

 

That’s not what the text says. That’s you reading ideas into the text.

 

 

 

“That's an example of interpreting James based upon what James ACTUALLY SAID”

 

If that were true, you wouldn’t have to use words like “indicates” so much.

 

 

 

“Words mean things!”

 

Some words have multiple connotations, and their meaning is dependent upon the context in which they are used.

 

 

 

“People can't see this when they try to read Paul into James rather than read James out of James”

 

I’ve done both. I’ve considered James’ argument in its immediate context, as well as shown James to be consistent with Paul – as I would expect to be the case with the Word of God.

[bcbsr]

 

 

 

So to begin with, you are equivocating the context. Your argument is not about “scripture being fulfilled”, but about Abram’s justification being “fulfilled”. Therefore, the context of “scripture being fulfilled” has no power to influence the interpretation of the fulfilment of Abram’s justification.

 

The Greek term ‘plarao’ (translated in James as “fulfilled”) can mean a variety of things and is used in a variety of ways – depending on the context. It is alternatively translated as fill, accomplish, satisfy, end, complete, perfect, to make full etc. (that is, exactly the same range of connotations ‘fulfilled’ has in English). So I don’t think it’s fair-minded to rest your argument upon such a narrow interpretation of “fulfilled”.

 

 

 

It's the same thing. The scripture that was fulfilled states, "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." Being credited to him as righteousness is his justification, as Paul also clearly states in Romans 4. James associates its fulfillment with reference to Gen 22. Thus James views Gen 15:6 as a prophecy not fulfilled until Abraham did a work of faith, which is consistent with the context which states, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

 

As for "fulfilled" having a variety of meanings, the term where talking about is the Scripture being fulfilled. No, there is not a single counter example where it does not mean prediction of a future event. 

[Tristen]

 

 

 

So to begin with, you are equivocating the context. Your argument is not about “scripture being fulfilled”, but about Abram’s justification being “fulfilled”. Therefore, the context of “scripture being fulfilled” has no power to influence the interpretation of the fulfilment of Abram’s justification.

 

The Greek term ‘plarao’ (translated in James as “fulfilled”) can mean a variety of things and is used in a variety of ways – depending on the context. It is alternatively translated as fill, accomplish, satisfy, end, complete, perfect, to make full etc. (that is, exactly the same range of connotations ‘fulfilled’ has in English). So I don’t think it’s fair-minded to rest your argument upon such a narrow interpretation of “fulfilled”.

 

 

 

It's the same thing. The scripture that was fulfilled states, "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness." Being credited to him as righteousness is his justification, as Paul also clearly states in Romans 4. James associates its fulfillment with reference to Gen 22. Thus James views Gen 15:6 as a prophecy not fulfilled until Abraham did a work of faith, which is consistent with the context which states, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

 

As for "fulfilled" having a variety of meanings, the term where talking about is the Scripture being fulfilled. No, there is not a single counter example where it does not mean prediction of a future event. 

 

 

In most instances, “scripture being fulfilled” is used to describe the manifestation of a prophecy. Genesis 15:16 is not a prophecy of some future event – it is a statement. So James’ use of “fulfilled” it’s not the same context as other usages. Other usages are only relevant to the point that they reflect the same grammatical context.

 

My interpretation of James is that Gen 22 is an expression of Abram’s faith (Gen 15:6) in the promise of Gen 15:5 – i.e. an example of how sincere faith will reveal itself through faithful actions.

 

You interpret James to mean that Abram could not have been justified prior to this specific expression of faith – even though that is not what is stated in the James text. If you consider how James introduces the topic (as explained in my previous post), your interpretation is clearly at odds with the author’s intent. James’ point is NOT that justification can only be achieved through some specific, one-off, pre-determined action (as your interpretation implies), but rather that a sincere faith (a requirement of salvation) will manifest itself in Godly decisions and behaviours.

[bcbsr]

 

In most instances, “scripture being fulfilled” is used to describe the manifestation of a prophecy. Genesis 15:16 is not a prophecy of some future event – it is a statement. So James’ use of “fulfilled” it’s not the same context as other usages. Other usages are only relevant to the point that they reflect the same grammatical context.

 

Your hypothesis, is based on circular reasoning. You assume that James makes that assumption, and so you end up coming "Genesis 15:16 is not a prophecy of some future event" up with a unique interpretation of "scripture being fulfilled" used nowhere else in the Bible.  I don't assume James makes that assumption. I note that when the phase scripture was fulfilled or what was spoken or written by the prophets and this the verse being quoted and then "was fulfilled", which actually occurs many times in the  Bible, those expressions are speaking of an event predicted in the future. And so James using that same expression indicates to me he's viewing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy. And in context of James he's indicating he views it as a prophecy not fulfilled until Gen 22. Which is in line with his argument that for a person to be justified he needs faith and works. Which is literally what he says. 

 

And it would seem by the expression he uses he's intentionally countering Paul's argument who declares that justification is by faith APART FROM WORKS, and who also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4, not as a prophecy, as James sees it, but as an event that occurs right after the promise of Gen 15:5. It's central to Paul's argument that Gen 15:6 not be viewed as a prophecy, for Paul's point is that Abraham did  no works between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6 and thus was justified by faith alone, regardless of works.

 

It would seem Jame brings up Gen 15:6 to provide an alternate interpretation of that verse in opposition to Paul. 

[FresnoJoe]

Blind

 

And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

 

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

 

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

 

Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Isaiah 29:11-14

 

Mice

 

But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

 

~

 

It would seem Jame brings up Gen 15:6 to provide an alternate interpretation....

of that verse in opposition to Paul.....

 

?

 

Old

 

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

 

Or New

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

 

One LORD...............

 

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

One Savior.......

 

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

 

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;

 

that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:11-13

 

One Truth...

 

For by grace are ye saved through faith;

 

and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works,

 

which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

 

No Brag

 

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

[Tristen]

 

 

In most instances, “scripture being fulfilled” is used to describe the manifestation of a prophecy. Genesis 15:16 is not a prophecy of some future event – it is a statement. So James’ use of “fulfilled” it’s not the same context as other usages. Other usages are only relevant to the point that they reflect the same grammatical context.

 

Your hypothesis, is based on circular reasoning. You assume that James makes that assumption, and so you end up coming "Genesis 15:16 is not a prophecy of some future event" up with a unique interpretation of "scripture being fulfilled" used nowhere else in the Bible.  I don't assume James makes that assumption. I note that when the phase scripture was fulfilled or what was spoken or written by the prophets and this the verse being quoted and then "was fulfilled", which actually occurs many times in the  Bible, those expressions are speaking of an event predicted in the future. And so James using that same expression indicates to me he's viewing Gen 15:6 as a prophecy. And in context of James he's indicating he views it as a prophecy not fulfilled until Gen 22. Which is in line with his argument that for a person to be justified he needs faith and works. Which is literally what he says. 

 

And it would seem by the expression he uses he's intentionally countering Paul's argument who declares that justification is by faith APART FROM WORKS, and who also quotes Gen 15:6 in Romans 4, not as a prophecy, as James sees it, but as an event that occurs right after the promise of Gen 15:5. It's central to Paul's argument that Gen 15:6 not be viewed as a prophecy, for Paul's point is that Abraham did  no works between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6 and thus was justified by faith alone, regardless of works.

 

It would seem Jame brings up Gen 15:6 to provide an alternate interpretation of that verse in opposition to Paul. 

 

 

The only thing I am assuming is that James understands his tenses. That is, James understands that when Genesis 15:6 says that Abram “believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness”, that it means Abram “believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness”, NOT that Abram ‘believed in the Lord, but his righteousness was attributed at a later date, only after he had performed some specific, God-ordained task’. This latter interpretation is; a) ridiculous, and b) inconsistent with the immediate context of James (as explained in previous posts).

 

 

 

So your primary argument relies on being obligated to a narrow definition of “fulfilled”. And the basis for this obligation is the prior usage of the phrase “scripture being fulfilled”. Prior usage is a legitimate aspect of context. However, the immediate context is more important than the general context when it comes to the interpretation of a particular verse.

 

Given the ridiculous nature of the interpretation you are reading into James, and the inconsistency of this interpretation with the immediate context provided by James, your interpretation does not meet the standard of consistency with the immediate context.

 

Regarding the immediate context of Genesis 22, there are two possible interpretations of James’ use of the phrase “scripture being fulfilled”; 1) that James was applying “fulfilled” to a prophecy contained in Gen 15:6, or 2) that James was applying “fulfilled” to Abram’s faith – specifically addressed in Gen 15:6.

 

I reject the first interpretation (that James was treating Gen 15:6 as a prophecy); namely, because there is no prophecy contained in Gen 15:6. Therefore, James’ use of “fulfilled” was referring to the outworking of Abram’s faith – and NOT a prophecy. As such, other usages of “scripture being fulfilled” which are referring to explicit prophecies are not informative in this context.

 

This second interpretation is further supported by the context provided in James 2 – with James explicitly addressing the outworking of faith by works;

“faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (verse 17)

“I will show you my faith by my works” (verse 18)

“faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect” (verse 22)

- So the topic here is faith being “made perfect” by works – NOT the fulfilment of prophecy.

 

 

 

So, to summarise my position;

I don’t think your interpretation of James makes sense in the light of either Genesis, or the immediate context in James itself. And I don’t think your appeal to other uses of “scripture being fulfilled” stacks up to sensible scrutiny. Therefore I feel no obligation to be bound to your narrow definition of “fulfilled”. And James can be reasonably interpreted to be consistent with the rest of scripture.

[bcbsr]

 

So, to summarise my position;

I don’t think your interpretation of James makes sense in the light of either Genesis, or the immediate context in James itself. And I don’t think your appeal to other uses of “scripture being fulfilled” stacks up to sensible scrutiny. Therefore I feel no obligation to be bound to your narrow definition of “fulfilled”. And James can be reasonably interpreted to be consistent with the rest of scripture.

 

 

Concerning James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness"

You're simply saying that it's not a prophecy because you say it's not a prophecy.

Compare with other places the Bible uses this same kind of expression and tell us which are not viewing the particular scripture referenced as a prophecy.

Mr 15:28  So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with the transgressors."

Joh 13:18  "I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Joh 19:24  They said therefore among themselves, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be," that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says: "They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots." Therefore the soldiers did these things.

Joh 19:28  After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!"

Joh 19:36  For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken."

Joh 15:25  "But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’

Mt 2:15  and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."

Mt 2:23  And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene."

 Mt 4:14-16 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned."

Mt 8:17  that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses."

Mt 12:17-21  that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: "Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased! I will put My Spirit upon Him, And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.  He will not quarrel nor cry out, Nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets. A bruised reed He will not break, And smoking flax He will not quench, Till He sends forth justice to victory;  And in His name Gentiles will trust."

Mt 27:9  Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced,

Mt 27:35  Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: "They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots."

Shall I go on? Just like James 2:23, each one of these speaks of the scriptures being fulfilled and then quotes the verse they are referring to. As I see it the overwhelming evidence is against your saying that James is not speaking of Gen 15:6 as a prophecy when he says, "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness'"

And as I've shown, James' usage of Gen 15:6 as a prophecy is consistent with his argument, contrary to Paul's usage of Gen 15:6. It doesn't make sense to you as a prophecy because you insist upon an interpretation which doesn't fit. You might at least try to entertain the notion that Gen 15:6 is a prophecy, an idea which as you may note above is overwhelmingly support by the rest of the Bible, and come up with an interpretation consistent with that notion.

Good Biblestudying to you

Edited June 24, 2015 by bcbsr