Another question

[darkest_red]

I suppose that if someone broke into your church, destroyed the sanctuary, it would be no big deal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The church I attend has been broken into many times and had stained glass windows smashed, things stolen etc and it is most definitely a big deal!

The church is in the centre of the city I live in and is also a hot spot for drug users- the back of the church was, at one point, though I think the situation has improved now, littered with needles etc and there were always drunk/high people around.

Good post btw!

[wouldhe]

I'll answer the question---------- buy the john 3-16 one. Reason---It holds a spiritual value over the plain one. Yeas, it has a value because i agree after sharpenoing-the verse will be shredded but for a wehile u can look at it--maybe others will too!

Extremely good question SJ!

[apothanein kerdos]

This is why I don't go to college and listen to this stuff.

Well that certainly is offensive and ignorant. If you went to a college you could potentially have avoided such heresies as Dualism.

And a for the Bible issue, a Bible is a Holy object, and I am disappointed that any Christian would not give it a second thought.

All objects in and of themselves are Holy because all are ultimately created by God. However, why is a Bible any more holy than A Tale of Two Cities? The Bible contains truth and I believe it is inerrant, do not get me wrong on this. However, it is just words written on paper. It is the inerrant truth behind these words that shall never be destroyed. It is the inerrant truth that is holy, not the physical book itself (though I think it is Holy, but for different reasons than you).

I suppose that if someone broke into your church, destroyed the sanctuary, it would be no big deal? Besides the fact it takes money to do the repairs that could be used for other things for God's work.

Thus church might be out of some money (if they had no insurance) and it would be a nusance as to where we would meet, but no, it wouldn't be heart breaking, it is just a building. You refered to it as a "place of worship". Do you suffer such loss when you watch a random person's house burn to the ground? That house holds the same power to worship in as the church building does. A business building is just as holy as a church building...so I would not see a big deal in the sanctuary burning down.

We are so lost in this shredding the word and dissecting it we don't have time for the basic issue. Christ died for sinners. We need to get back to the basics.

While a pencil might seem simplistic, it gets the point across that Christianity in the American culture is highly unbiblical and far from worshiping God. The "Basics" of Christianity is that we are to bring glory to God. Evangelism is simply one of the many ways we are commanded to bring glory and honor to the Lord. What makes a cross any more holy than a rock? Both bring equal glory and honor to God and both can mean more to one person than the other. By trying to say that something is "more holy" simply because it has scripture on it or some Judaic-Christian symbol on it we limit the ways in which God gains glory. We try to limit God's glory. In my opinion, that is far from insignificant.

[apothanein kerdos]

I'll answer the question---------- buy the john 3-16 one.    Reason---It holds a spiritual value over the plain one.    Yeas, it has a value because i agree after sharpenoing-the verse will be shredded but for a wehile u can look at it--maybe others will too!

Extremely good question SJ!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both were created from materials given to us by God. Both serve a potential purpose to be used in the creation of an essay or painting which will display the mind that God has given man, thus glorifying Him. Both can be used to witness to a person. So how is one pencil more spiritual than the other when both bring glory to God?

[O'Dannyboy]

I personally would prefer the ones with John 3:16 on them. I think we need to read that verse every day. We need all the reminders we can get of his sacrifice for us and how much he loves us.

Makes me think of when your watching a program where a child is fussing about eating his carrots or something. The childs mother would scold him and say that he should "clean his plate". Only now do we understand that there ARE millions of people who would love to eat those carrots. Even if you don't want, need or like them, eat them for the sake of those who can only wish they had them. Humility and Thanksgiving are GIFTS. We should be even more thankful when we can see how humble we should be.

[Joe Christian]

Thanks, Super Jew. You have just showed everyone how you are so much better than me because I don't go to college.( precisely the point I was making )You have what we call in the country, book smarts, but no common or (horse) sense. I belive in one learning more, but to debate such things as a pencil with a scripture on it is a little stupid and waste of the money being spent on your education. I hope you are not getting any government grants, because if you are, I want my tax money back. You think I'm being offensive? You tell me my Bible on my desk is just words on paper. Humph! Tell Moses when you see him, that those tablets were just pieces of rock he broke. I know what you will say, God wrote it Himself. Well, I guess God doesn't help get Bibles into China and other places? Tell that person's father or mother of the person that was shot for it that it is just words on paper. Listen to this, Super Jew, I was a police officer about 12 years ago. I investigated a church vandalism once. Someone took the fire extinguishers and sprayed them all over the church. I had the mother come in of a juvenile that we suspected of doing it. Guess what? When the mother found out that her son did this....(to the church where her husband and her had just become members of), she just about fell out of her chair. She was so ashamed and started sobbing. That was gee...maybe damaging more than just a building? My first week on the job in this town, the Presbetyrian Church burned down. ( I agree, just a building.) But, Super...can you look in the eyes of a elderly church member that was raised there, watched their kids get married there, said goodbye to family and friends there, and tell them "It's JUST a building?" Do you have any kind of compassion for anyone? I have also been a Volunteer Firefighter. I've seen people lose their businesses, homes, all they had. Yes, in reality it's just buildings and stuff. Does that take the pain away? No. I'm not saying that a pencil IS more valuable because it says John 3:16 or not. But the mere idea that it has got that on it can be a tool for witnessing. Does not God say that his word say that it doesn't return void? For goodness sake, we have to lock up churches now. Insurance? Who pays for it? The church members, out of tithes to God. So, when something like vandelism occurs God pays the bill. I'm ignorant Super? Well, maybe, but I know this, that if we don't take our places of worship seriously, treat a Bible with respect, use items that can be used as tools for witnessing, how can we expect others to respect them, or us? Is not a church blessed before it is occupied? That makes it a holy place. One last thought, Super... if your automobile gets broken into, and someone destroys your Bible and all your notes for class and that big term paper you worked for days on, remember, as you are redoing it all, remember, it's just words on paper.

[apothanein kerdos]

You have just showed everyone how you are so much better than me because I don't go to college.(

So simply because I disagreed with you and provided my perspective I've asserted some sort of superiority over you? That is absolutely ludicrous. For me to assert any form of supreriority over you or to believe that I am superior would defeat the entire purpose of my beliefs and would simply throw me back into Dualism. I do not think I am superior in any way, shape, or form. I think a person that does not have a college education can be as educated as someone who does. I simply choose to worship God by going to college and learning about the things that He has created. This aspect, the Dualistic one that I'm attacking, is something that I have learned about and realize that it is a heresy and limits God.

You have what we call in the country, book smarts, but no common or (horse) sense.

Where I come from I call that statement rude. How about instead of attacking me you actually respond to the point?

I belive in one learning more, but to debate such things as a pencil with a scripture on it is a little stupid and waste of the money being spent on your education.

Then why did you enter the discussion? Obviously you're making a great effort to miss the bigger picture that was painted by the smaller point. By using an item that is "insignificant" (how you consider something that brings glory to God "stupid" and "a waste of money" is beyond me) I am able to demonstrate the bigger picture in that we place uneeded significance on "spiritual" items.

hope you are not getting any government grants, because if you are, I want my tax money back. You think I'm being offensive?

Yes, I do think you are being quite obsute and ignoring Christ-like all together.

You tell me my Bible on my desk is just words on paper. Humph! Tell Moses when you see him, that those tablets were just pieces of rock he broke. I know what you will say, God wrote it Himself.

Had those tablets themselves been Holy then God would have killed him for breaking them. It is the message upon those tablets that was holy, not the tablets themselves (per se). When I say that the Bible is "just words on paper" I am not trying to devalue it but simply pointing the inevitable truth that it is just words on paper. It is the power and truth behind those words that make it worth while. Though the tablets were destroyed, the truth still remained. Though a Bible is destroyed, the truth still remains.

Well, I guess God doesn't help get Bibles into China and other places? Tell that person's father or mother of the person that was shot for it that it is just words on paper.

People die for the truth within the Bible. I honestly wish you'd either look at this with a different perspective or just leave this conversation, you are offering nothing but rudeness on this discussion.

That was gee...maybe damaging more than just a building?

Why is a church any more holy than a house?

But, Super...can you look in the eyes of a elderly church member that was raised there, watched their kids get married there, said goodbye to family and friends there, and tell them "It's JUST a building?" Do you have any kind of compassion for anyone?

You're misunderstanding the point. I drew the comparison to the house to show that a church building is no more holy than a house. Both are equally holy (unless, of course, the owner of one does unholy things within them) and both hold sentimental value. I am not saying, "oh it's just a church". It holds memories and people will be upset. I would be upset if my church building burned down. For goodness sakes it's over 100 years old. Imagine the history lost if it burned down. For 100 years it has stood as a testament to God (just as other buildings have that are not church buildings). At the same time, I do not place any special value on that building because I think it is somehow holier than another building.

I've seen people lose their businesses, homes, all they had. Yes, in reality it's just buildings and stuff. Does that take the pain away? No. I'm not saying that a pencil IS more valuable because it says John 3:16 or not. But the mere idea that it has got that on it can be a tool for witnessing.

His "word" is truth which is found within the scriptures. What if someone is blind? Are they now not able to enjoy the Word of God because they cannot read? What if the only way for a person to get the Bible is on audio tape in their own language? The truth is not contained to written words my friend.

For goodness sake, we have to lock up churches now. Insurance? Who pays for it? The church members, out of tithes to God. So, when something like vandelism occurs God pays the bill.

Could it not also be said that when vandelism occurs at an elderly person's house God is also paying the bill?

I'm ignorant Super?

When it comes to your view towards college, yes, you are.

Well, maybe, but I know this, that if we don't take our places of worship seriously, treat a Bible with respect, use items that can be used as tools for witnessing, how can we expect others to respect them, or us?

Place of worship...why must a sanctuary at a church be a place of worship? Could not my car hold equal value?

I am not saying we should not respect the Bible. It holds a vast ammount of truth and saving knowledge. What I am saying is that when we limit God's truth to just the Bible and written words, we limit the ways in which God can reach people. Anything can be used as a tool for worship and evangelism, thus we must give all things the equal ammount of respect.

Is not a church blessed before it is occupied?

It does give glory to God, then again, so does every building prior to occupation.

f your automobile gets broken into, and someone destroys your Bible and all your notes for class and that big term paper you worked for days on, remember, as you are redoing it all, remember, it's just words on paper.

Again, you miss the point entirely.

[IslandRose]

Gentlemen, please discuss the points of the debate and not each other.

It may soon be time to close this discussion.

IR

[Joe Christian]

Okay...The pencil has no saving value. The Bible on it's own, does not save anyone. The church is a building. I admit all this. But, I reserve the right to think my Bible has reverence to it and I will speak to anyone that disturbs it on purpose, and give my opinion that is disrespectful. Same thing of anyone that disturbs a place of worship. I will agree to disagree about our opinions, Super Jew. I wish you well in your further endeavors in learning.

In Christ, Joe.

[Kabowd]

I think Joe Christian added to the discussion even more than he realized. He provided a perfect example of the dualism and paradigm that needs to be shifted within modern christian culture. Some ppl go out of their way to defend things they deem as "holy", never realizing that by trampling on someone else to do so they defeat and discredit their entire "defense".