Zion

[Sister]

The church is clearly referred to as the body of Christ:

 

so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.  Romans 12:5

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.  1 Corinthians 12:27

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.  Ephesians 5:23

 

The bride is clearly the heavenly Jerusalem:

 

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,  Revelation 21:9-10

 

Yes, Jesus is the bridegroom and the bride is made up of all of the saints.  The church, which is the body of Christ, in only a part of all the saints.  Don't forget about the old testament saints and I'm sure millennial saints as well.

 

So, I agree Sister.  It is a city for those who love the truth.  It's inhabitants are the saints, all of them, not just the body of Christ.  At least that's how I see it.

Thank you Last Daze

 

Psalms 50:2   Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.

Psalms 87:2   The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.

[Ezra]

Am I making any sense?

No you are not.

We are not the bride. The bride is that city that comes down. We are part of that building now, but not the bride. We are not holy Jerusalem. She existed before us. How can she turn into us and become us?

As I already pointed out, Christ does not marry "heavenly bricks and mortar" (gold, precious stones, etc) therefore it is impossible -- indeed absurd -- that the city is the Bride.  But the city in indeed THE ETERNAL HOME OF THE BRIDE (and therefore seen as a personification of the Bride).  Please note carefully the difference between the city and its occupants (Heb 12:22-24):

 

THE CITY

 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,

 

ITS OCCUPANTS

and to (1) an innumerable company of angels,

 

(2)To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

 

(3) and to God the Judge of all,

 

(4) and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

(5) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

[thereselittleflower]

The Bride of Christ:

 

Ephesians 5:25-27 ESV / 272 helpful votes 

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

 

2 Corinthians 11:2 ESV / 89 helpful votes

For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.

 

Ephesians 5:31-32

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh 

 

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Edited July 8, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Guest shiloh357]

The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride.  Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the  Church should have.

 

The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church.   The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem.  The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem which is clearly a city not a group of people.

[missmuffet]

The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride.  Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the  Church should have.

 

The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church.   The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem.  The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem which is clearly a city not a group of people.

I disagree.

 

Question: "What does it mean that the church is the bride of Christ?"

Answer:The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27). Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2;Ephesians 5:24). At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9;21:1-2).

At that time, all believers will inhabit the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” inRevelation 21:2and10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.”

As believers in Jesus Christ, we who are the bride of Christ wait with great anticipation for the day when we will be united with our Bridegroom. Until then, we remain faithful to Him and say with all the redeemed of the Lord, “Come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20).

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/bride-of-Christ.html#ixzz3fKwWlyOi

[Last Daze]

The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride.  Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the  Church should have.

 

The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church.   The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem.  The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem which is clearly a city not a group of people.

 

I agree.  I don't understand why some think that analogies and imagery override what is plainly stated?  I wonder if they consider themselves to be literal branches too.

[thereselittleflower]

 

The Church is not the Bride and has never been called a bride.  Bride imagery is used in connection to the Church to indicate the kind of purity and chastity the  Church should have.

 

The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church.   The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem.  The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem which is clearly a city not a group of people.

 

I agree.  I don't understand why some think that analogies and imagery override what is plainly stated?  I wonder if they consider themselves to be literal branches too.

 

 

Scripture often uses figures of speech.  That this might not be readily apparent to  a superficial reader of scripture in english today is  simply because the people who wrote scripture used a language and lived in a culture that was rich in the use  of figures of speech.    What seems plain to some today thousands of years removed in time, place, culture, language, idioms, etc would be nothing like how the people understood the scriptures as written who lived and breathed the same culture, language with all its rich use of figures of speech, idioms, etc.

 

Who do you think would be most likely to be right?

[Sister]

 

Am I making any sense?

No you are not.

We are not the bride. The bride is that city that comes down. We are part of that building now, but not the bride. We are not holy Jerusalem. She existed before us. How can she turn into us and become us?

As I already pointed out, Christ does not marry "heavenly bricks and mortar" (gold, precious stones, etc) therefore it is impossible -- indeed absurd -- that the city is the Bride.  But the city in indeed THE ETERNAL HOME OF THE BRIDE (and therefore seen as a personification of the Bride).  Please note carefully the difference between the city and its occupants (Heb 12:22-24):

 

Ezra

 

Christ does not marry any one in reality.  All is just used as symbolism to depict a grand ceremony, a union.  It's pictured as a wedding is all, but not a real wedding.

 

The world does not believe in the one true God and his saviour our Lord Jesus Christ.  To them the bible is full of made up stories by men.  They look at the God fearing as fools believing in something that is not true, and his name is blasphemed every day.  They mock Christ and his words, and think that they have the right to do whatever pleasure they seek in.  Over all Christ is not taken seriously to the world, and they even deny that what they are doing is sin.  So God is going to set the world straight.  Every Word that Christ preached is true and will be fulfilled. 

When this takes place, what he spoke and what he does will be joined.  This is the union, that he spoke truth.  All who believe in his teachings will be there to witness this union, that he is faithful and means what he says. The saints will be present in the glorifying of his name and the glory of the truth.  This is what saves.  This is the celebration.

 

The saints will become part of that city which is now made up of the faithful, and together with Christ they will rule in this city of truth on earth.

 

 

I never said Christ marries heavenly bricks and mortar, you said that it is absurb that the city is the bride?  Well I gave you scripture, and this scripture is clear who the "bride" is.

 

Revelation 21:9   And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10   And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 

The bride is Zion.  She gives birth to her children at the resurrection.  They will be born of the spirit this time, and not born flesh.  They are born out of her teachings now, the truth. She's not a real woman, and there is no real marriage, but a celebration of a union, and it goes so deep Ezra. 

[Ezra]

Sister,

 

Since you like to dabble in mysticism, there is nothing more to discuss.  I could take each of your statements above and show from Scripture that you are coming up with your own ideas.

 

Let's take one over the top statement of yours:

"She gives birth to her children at the resurrection".

According to this:

1. The New Jerusalem has a mystical womb.

2. Christians are in this mystical womb at present.

3. At the resurrection of the saints they will come out of this marvellous mystical womb.

 

Where in the world did you get such a fanciful notion, and which Scriptures do you have to support these fantasies?  According to how you handle the Word, anything can be made to become anything else, and each one can come up with their own fancies.  The Bible then becomes the Arabian Nights.

 

I already pointed out that the city is simply a personification of the occupants, but you refuse to accept that. So quoting Rev 21:9,10 only proves that you do not wish to rightly divide the Word of Truth, but go off on mystical tangents. All the best to you, but beware.  This type of speculation simply leads to false doctrine.

[Ezra]

The New Jerusalem is the Bride and that is not the church.

Already addressed. Heavenly "bricks and mortar" (gold, precious stones, etc.) cannot possibly be the Bride.  That is absurd in the extreme. 

The Church is mentioned separately from the New Jerusalem.

No. It is not. Read Hebrews 12:22-24.  The Church is one of the OCCUPANTS of the New Jerusalem, along with God and Christ. 

The Church has already returned to the earth with Jesus and is reigning with him

The Church was never meant to return to earth.  It is presently "seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus" and will remain in the New Jerusalem eternally while it reigns with Christ.  On the other hand, redeemed and restored Israel will definitely be on earth, possessing the land between the Nile and the Euphrates, and all twelve tribes will have their eternal inheritance ON EARTH.  Study Ezekiel.

prior to the descent of the New Jerusalem

New Jerusalem descends from Heaven but is never shown to rest on earth, because it is essentially a heavenly city which will give light to the earth.  Read Revelation.  New Jerusalem therefore hovers over the earth as a magnificent cubic city.

which is clearly a city not a group of people.

What is the purpose of any city other than to accommodate a group of people?  Just because it is personified should not lead to confusion about the purpose of a city. God does not have union and communion with inanimate materials but with souls and spirits.