PRE-TOJT Catching Away

[InSeasonOut]

CONTINUED :

 

 

and God preserved the Bible and now there is millions of perfect copies that will be preserved in the Bible that will be in 70th week.

Its just logical... All the inspired books are together in 66 books, but not everything is personally for you, sorry

 

I do not know what you mean here, but see my above reply. (btw, according to you, not all of those 66 books are for us anyway, so why use them as an example to back one perspective but not the other? .. be consistent please)

 

 

Again we can get things out of Hebrews and James but the book as a whole is NOT written to Christians in this time period

of what is commonly called the church age = the Cross to the Rapture, is how i define it.

 

You need be more specific, broad statements aren't helpful when one is saying that "Hebrews & James & the bible as a whole", for example, "isn't for us" ..but .. certain "things" out of them are !! Huh?

 

Tell me, exactly WHO is determining what "things are "for us" and what things aren't? 

 

I don't need to be told what is laid out for us & what isn't .. it's all common sense, you see ..you are likely confusing historical events with their centred narrative, confusing that aspect with the  DOCTRINE therein, which is meant for "all of us" regardless of the historic circumstances certain groups found themselves in at certain times .. 

 

ALL doctrine within ALL books of the NT are for us no matter what ethnic group they were spoken to at the time .. the DOCTRINE transcends the "group" first hearing it, it spreads out unto "all who hear it's message".. where are you learning this confusion?

 

 

I'm not a hyperdispensationalist but Paul mainly has all the doctrines for Christians in the "church age"

 

 

I have no concept of what you mean by  "hyperdispensationalist" neither do I care to know all these "secular" Christian tags invented by the so called "learned" who sow confusion as is written.

 

The doctrine is universal friend .. why are you separating it into "age relevancy"? Do you mean prophecies? They are "age relevant" but the doctrine itself? Sorry .. but this is in clear conflict with Christ's message.

 

 

There's a difference between the spirit of antichrist and the final literal antichrist.

 

Of course there is a difference, there is no literal "Antichrist" is the difference, there is only the false prophet (individual) and the Beast Empire of the 10 kings  counted AS one .. for they become as one by God's very own doing as is written in revelations .. please COUNT :

 

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

TWO only .. with no "Antichrist" to be seen anywhere but in misinterpretation / understanding what the Apostle meant by "he" when speaking of this "Antichrist".

 

And THEN after the millennium :

 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

NO "Antichrist" there either ..

 

Oh, and not forgetting these at the 2nd judgment :

 

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

Hmm, seems this "Antichrist" is nowhere in relation to prophetic truths.

 

 

When God allows the final literal antichrist to come forth that IS God's wrath upon all who rejected Jesus Christ,

some people become believers and thus "trib saints" and must endure to the end to be saved.

 

Sorry? Then why did you dispute what I said in the first place?

 

The wrath of God comes directly after the set period of tribulation of the saints which lasts 3 1/2 years which is counted among the 2300 days, which is only 6.49 years which means there is missing time which means the answer to that missing time must be somewhere & guess where it is .. BOTH the OT and the NT.. regardless of the 3 1/2 years & the 3 1/2 years that make up the 7 years, there is a reason for this "missing time" which is not missing at al but is indeed revealed elsewhere which requires a mix of common sense & spiritual discernment & knowledge of both OT & NT prophecies to grasp and fill in that "missing time" to make the 7 years understanding accurate & "whole" again in prophetic terms .. which again demolishes your claim the the OT is "not for us".

 

CONTINUED :

 

Oh boy i don't think were gonna get along very well....

 

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL SCRIPTURE - not all is doctrine for Christians tho (animal sacrifice) - but can be used for instruction in righteousness (offering spiritual sacrifices)

ETC. See my point?

 

Read 2 Timothy 3:16 again please

ll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

Hebrews and James contain doctrines that are NOT for Christians - Because the Books are written TO JEWS

Those doctrines in in James and Hebrews are FOR JEWS in Daniels 70th week.

EXAMPLE James 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Answer : YES - RIGHT NOW - What about in Daniels 70th week? Answer : NO he also needs works to be saved (Rev13 - 14:9-12)

 

Remember 2Tim 3:16?  Doctrinally James 2:14 is for "THE Tribulation"

But Christians today - can take this for instruction in righteousness - "ye shall know them by their fruits"

 

Christians are not saved BY works, im not talking about fruit im talking about salvation - it is a FREE GIFT

What about in Daniels 70th week? Sorry no - after the PRE TRIB RAPTURE enters a NEW DISPENSATION

The salvation plan in ""THE tribulation" will be a variation plan of the Old Testament as it has been amended by doctrines in Hebrews

becuase the prophecy of Daniels seventy weeks will be completed at the beginning of the Millenium

This salvation plan will dispense the grace of God thru faith in Jesus Christ with the endurance of works and patience till the end

Matthew 24:13 ; Mark 13:13 ; Hebrews 3:14 ; 6:11-12 ; 10:26-39 <

 

Okay one more time

2 Timothy 3:16

ll scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

Lets look at Hebrews 3:14

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Doctrinally this lines up with many verses in "the tribulation"

Instruction in righteosness for a Christian today could be ..laying up treasures in heaven for a millenial inheritance

 

3:14 is not doctrinally for Christians

because the Born Again Believer is made a partaker with Christ Jesus AT salvation,

 

but the believer of the last days must endure to the end

 

2 Tim 2:15

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

 

Finally the final literal Antichrist is a man - not a system

1John 2:18-19 the reference to antichrist is singular before the plural antichrists

 

The Antichrist is against Christ but really means in place of Christ - like Daniel wrote of him in the temple saying that he is God

Thats the Antichrist!

 

2 Thess 2:1-9 shows the Antichrist is a literal man - in fact he is called "the man of sin" and the "son of perdition"

the mystery of iniquity is linked to the Antichrist and spirit of antichrist. Revelation 12:1-17 does not speak of a system

chapter 13: 1-2 a man linked to a beast

13: 11-12 the false prophet rules alongside the Antichrist. AKA beast.

The satanic trinity is the Devil / Satan - the Antichrist (beast) and false prophet.

[ENOCH2010]

The word "saved" in, he who endures to the end will be saved, doesn't mean salvation, it means rescued.

[InSeasonOut]

The word "saved" in, he who endures to the end will be saved, doesn't mean salvation, it means rescued.

 

Rescued means salvation.

 

Jesus saves

Jesus rescues

 

If He did not save you he did not rescue you.

If He does not rescue you he did not save you.

 

Logic.

[Serving]

Hi InSeasonOut,

 

 

Oh boy i don't think were gonna get along very well....

 

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

ALL SCRIPTURE - not all is doctrine for Christians tho (animal sacrifice) - but can be used for instruction in righteousness (offering spiritual sacrifices)

ETC. See my point?

 

Well obviously not all scripture is doctrine, I never claimed that, I said, "I am speaking about the doctrine" in response to your saying, "The book of Hebrews isn't for us, only some things in it are".

 

I was pointing out the doctrine which fills the whole book of Hebrews from start to finish is found in that book and therefore is indeed for us today seeing that doctrine is far more than just "some things" as you stated.

 

So tell me,

 

Q: Do you still claim that the book of Hebrews is "not for us" except for "some stuff" in it?

 

 

Hebrews and James contain doctrines that are NOT for Christians - Because the Books are written TO JEWS

Those doctrines in in James and Hebrews are FOR JEWS in Daniels 70th week.

EXAMPLE James 2:14

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Answer : YES - RIGHT NOW - What about in Daniels 70th week? Answer : NO he also needs works to be saved (Rev13 - 14:9-12)

Remember 2Tim 3:16?  Doctrinally James 2:14 is for "THE Tribulation"

But Christians today - can take this for instruction in righteousness - "ye shall know them by their fruits"

 

Christians are not saved BY works, im not talking about fruit im talking about salvation - it is a FREE GIFT

What about in Daniels 70th week? Sorry no - after the PRE TRIB RAPTURE enters a NEW DISPENSATION

The salvation plan in ""THE tribulation" will be a variation plan of the Old Testament as it has been amended by doctrines in Hebrews

becuase the prophecy of Daniels seventy weeks will be completed at the beginning of the Millenium

This salvation plan will dispense the grace of God thru faith in Jesus Christ with the endurance of works and patience till the end

Matthew 24:13 ; Mark 13:13 ; Hebrews 3:14 ; 6:11-12 ; 10:26-39 <

 

Sorry, but you are not understanding the message and have confused yourself.

 

Lets start at the top first to get the context .. who is being addressed?

 

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

 

Firstly, which brethren? Jews or believers?

 

If these are believers in Christ, then this doctrine being explained is indeed "for us" & for that group being spoken to also .. let us see ..

 

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

 

Here this group is being told not to abuse their faith in the Lord with respect of persons .. so .. these are believers .. those brethren.

 

Thus what we see here is doctrine being explained to those Christian believers, which then, by default, also applies to us today.

 

Which narrative eventually led to this example directed at that same group of believers in Christ of which you are using to back your understanding that faith is enough :

 

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

To which you interpreted :

 

 

Answer : YES - RIGHT NOW - What about in Daniels 70th week? Answer : NO he also needs works to be saved (Rev13 - 14:9-12)

 

Remember 2Tim 3:16?  Doctrinally James 2:14 is for "THE Tribulation"

 

But Christians today - can take this for instruction in righteousness - "ye shall know them by their fruits"

 

Christians are not saved BY works, im not talking about fruit im talking about salvation - it is a FREE GIFT

What about in Daniels 70th week? Sorry no - after the PRE TRIB RAPTURE enters a NEW DISPENSATION

 

The salvation plan in ""THE tribulation" will be a variation plan of the Old Testament as it has been amended by doctrines in Hebrews

 

becuase the prophecy of Daniels seventy weeks will be completed at the beginning of the Millenium

 

This salvation plan will dispense the grace of God thru faith in Jesus Christ with the endurance of works and patience till the end

 

Matthew 24:13 ; Mark 13:13 ; Hebrews 3:14 ; 6:11-12 ; 10:26-39 <

 

 

So what you have stated is that the faith part of the message was directed at "them & us" .. BUT .. the works part of the message was meant for a future Hebrew generation come the millennium .. shame James never told them that huh? They must have been awfully confused .. "Bad James" .. what a sloppy display of teaching, confusing those poor Hebrews like that, they who were needing guidance / doctrine there & then for their walk !!

 

So lets get this into perspective ..

 

What you have done is divided the one message given directly & in person to that one group who were needing instruction relative to their walk there & then.. into two messages & into two groups where it turns out one part of James' statement was not directed at them after all, but at some future generation of which James neglected to tell them to totally ignore because that part concerning works was not for them !!

 

"Oh boy" indeed.

 

Lets look at the doctrine then that those Christian Hebrews James was addressing, by your reckoning, what they should have "taken out of" what James told them directly, shall we? Remembering that we have established what is meant by brethren in this context .. (and remembering that the message James was giving, was something these brethren were being told to take heed of / put into practice)

 

Here was the verse in question :

 

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

 

NOW .. here is the message going by your reckoning since the works part was for some future generation & not them / us.

 

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, can faith save him?

 

Now that doesn't look right does it !! .. lets see ..

 

If a man has faith by your reckoning this means one is saved because he has accepted the FREE GIFT of salvation upon which that faith also rests, whereby faith is one's personal pillar, AND salvation is the GIFT because of that faith .. which is saying, "all a man needs is faith and he will be saved" .. YET .. James then goes on to question those brethren whether faith is enough to save a man after all?

 

HUH??

 

Is James divulging in circular reasoning here?

 

Other words, "all you need is faith .. but .. can faith save you? (which would be the reading if going by your perspective / explanation)

 

HUH??

 

Other words, "all you need to buy that product is one dollar .. but is one dollar enough?

 

HUH??

 

One dollar is one dollar?? Isn't it??

 

 

Look closer and "see" brother :  James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, can faith save him?

 

 

CONTINUED :

[Serving]

JAMES continues

 

 

Recap of personally edited version of what James 2:14 is actually saying according to your interpretation where works is removed from the passage :

 

 

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, can faith save him?

 

Lets see .. going by YOUR reckoning then, and keeping in line with YOUR rule of interpretation .. all James should be about to say to that group whom the message is being  directed at .. is .. simply .. YES .. that faith is enough to save a man / FREE GIFT OF SALVATION  etc..

So lets cut to the chase & lets HEAR what James really has to say ..

 

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

 

No YES here .. but a coming example for that group of believers to understand him better with the above opening line ..

 

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

 

No YES here, but an example /warning to that group of believers of neglect towards one's fellow man, but hey .. they do have FAITH right !! .. that's enough right? .. WRONG. 

 

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

 

No YES here either, instead we find James telling that group of believers that faith without works is dead. (LISTEN to CHRIST'S doctrine please & not this "other" one).

 

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

Still No YES that faith is enough to save a man .. instead we find James telling this same group of believers that faith produces works.

 

So then, this statement of yours:

 

 

 

Christians are not saved BY works, im not talking about fruit im talking about salvation - it is a FREE GIFT

 

Is a misunderstanding of the subject James chapter 2 was dealing with and is turned / twisted into another doctrine all together ..one which has misappropriated James 14 to support an all together incorrect reading.

 

To which reading / religion / doctrine James would no doubt have been prophetically aiming this statement at :

 

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

 

The rest of your statements, quite frankly, are inconsequential in light of the above, and should be seriously revisited by you to ensure that you are not being taught even more error upon the already exposed error.

 

 

Please look into what is meant by works & where & how works come about & it's essential relevance in the believers walk.  

 

 

Regards.

[Bible2]

InSeasonOut said in post 30:

 

Rightly divide the word of truth 2Tim2:15

 

In 2 Timothy 2:15b, "rightly dividing the word of truth" refers to how the Bible was originally written down in manuscripts which had no spaces between the words, no punctuation, and no distinguishing capitalization or non-capitalization. That is, it was just an unbroken stream of upper- or lower-case letters. So, for example, Genesis 1:6-7 would have looked like this: "andgodsaidlettherebeafirmamentinthemidstofthewatersandletitdividethewatersfromthewatersandgodmadethe firmamentanddividedthewaterswhichwereunderthefirmamentfromthewaterswhichwereabovethefirmamentanditwasso". This required those who studied the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15a) to rightly divide between the words in order to arrive at the correct meaning. So, in the above example, if one mistakenly divided "watersandletitdividethewaters" into the words "water: sand, let it divide the waters", one would come away with the mistaken idea that Genesis 1:6-7 refers to God creating sand bars, instead of him creating the atmosphere (the firmament, the 1st heaven, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20b) to hold water up in the air (such as in clouds), above and separate from the water in the ocean.

 

--

 

InSeasonOut said in post 32:

 

Sorry no - after the PRE TRIB RAPTURE enters a NEW DISPENSATION

 

Dispensationalism seems to be based on the mistaken idea that Ephesians 3:2 refers to a period of time (a so-called age of grace or church age) which doesn't include Israel, and which will end when the future tribulation begins.

 

But regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

 

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

 

Also, see the 2nd section of post #5 above.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 32:

 

Finally the final literal Antichrist is a man - not a system
1John 2:18-19 the reference to antichrist is singular before the plural antichrists

 

While 1 John 2:18 says, in the singular, "antichrist shall come", the idea of the individual-man Antichrist (which is correct) isn't based on this verse, for this verse refers to the singular antichrist spirit (see the original Greek of 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 1:7). Regarding the "ye have heard" part of 1 John 2:18, those originally addressed in 1 John 2:18 could have already heard through non-written, oral, apostolic teaching (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:5) that the antichrist spirit would come.

 

InSeasonOut said in post 32:

 

The Antichrist is against Christ but really means in place of Christ . . .

 

Do you mean he will claim to be Christ?

 

If so, "anti"-Christ can refer to anyone who is simply "against" the true Christ, as in any "opponent of the Messiah" (Strong's Greek Dictionary, Word #500: antichristos), as in anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), or denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) has been working since the 1st century AD (2 Thessalonians 2:7), animating many antichrists since that time (1 John 2:18; 2 John 1:7).

 

Note that nothing requires that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will ever claim to be the Messiah/Christ. For his antichrist denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him as a mortal-flesh human (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being Christ. Instead, the non-mortal-flesh Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) could be the false Christ (i.e. the "Lucifer" Christ, and not the "Jesus" Christ: 1 John 2:22) during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

 

But none of this means that there won't also be multiple, human false Christs who will arise during the tribulation (Matthew 24:24), including one who will be an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Christ/Messiah. For shortly after the start of the tribulation, the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22-23a) in Israel, promising this false Messiah and his ultra-Orthodox Jewish followers that they can keep for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a) a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

 

That is, in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath: H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The 1st century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be a fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

 

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he is (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

 

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

[Last Daze]

The 1st thing I would like for all to answer (if you disagree with pre-tojt) is what are you doing to prepare for "the tribulation" as you call it?

What about winter? can you start a fire? build a shelter? purify water? are you storing up food?

If not, why are you wasting your time answering me, you got alot of work to do...

Please answer that first ^

 

The great tribulation is a time of global martyrdom where people refuse to worship the image (receive his mark) and are put to death.  Have you not read that a great multitude beyond number from every nation, tribe, people, and tongue come out of the great tribulation?  No amount of fire starting or shelter building or any other external preparation was necessary for them to pass the test.  They did not love the world and when it came to choose between following the man of sin or following Christ, they chose Christ.  The preparation is spiritual.

 

 

If not, why are you wasting your time answering me, you got alot of work to do...

 

Interesting.

[Last Daze]

But you will  never convince those with a Martyr Complex.  They desire to be subjected to both the Tribulation as well as the Great Tribulation. 

 

Martyr Complex?  Nice.  Better than having thanatophobia I guess.

 

Are all people who interpret prophecy and expect to go through the great tribulation considered to have this "martyr complex?"  Just wondering if that's another of many made up terms or if you're referring to a specific subset thereof.

[firestormx]

 

 

When God opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist, bringing war and famine, - thats the wrath of God,

 I have a quick question about this statement. So your saying that everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God, correct? How can that be? Have you read the 5th seal? It's the killing of the saints. If everything from the first seal onward is the wrath of God then the killing of the saints of God is God's wrath. Let me say that again, killing God's saints is God's wrath. How is that even possible? How does that make any sense? What are you gonna say to this I wonder? I hope it's not that everything before and after the 5th seal is God's wrath but not the 5th seal itself because If that is your belief, I wanna see that backed up with bible if you don't mind. Thank you for your time.

 

 

Firestormx

I wish to also add, take note that these wars and famines are coming out of heaven...does that sound like a God in a jovial mood?

Further who are you to question how God wishes to conduct HIS wrath and his refinement of saints?

You missed the point so let me point it out plainly. 1st. we are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation, so God's wrath can't be poured out onto his saints. 2nd. Joel 2 30-31 states an event must take place before the great and terrible day of the Lord ( which is God's wrath ) and that event is either the 6th seal or the 4th trumpet. Either way the wrath of God can't begin until the event in Joel 2 30-31 takes place, and it takes place sometime after the 5th seal which means it's impossible for the 5th seal to be God's wrath. Lastly, are you saying that you or the post I quoted are God? Because if your not then I am doing the same thing as you and the post I quoted. Stating my belief on the end time. I'm not questioning how God conducts his wrath, I question if your interpretation on when it begins is correct. 

[InSeasonOut]

" Serving "

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

 

Firstly, which brethren? Jews or believers?

 

Answer: Back up to James 1:1-2

James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. 2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

 

James was a Jew according to the flesh. He wrote to the twelve tribes (Jews) they're also his brethren.

And since this is doctrinally pointed to the last days, where the tribes are recognized again and sealed, they become "believers" and thus "brethren"

 

I've answered you twice now, thats enough silly questions, sorry. I don't debate.

Edited August 3, 2015 by InSeasonOut