Can anyone tell me how to cleanse the inside of the cup and the plate?

[hmbld]

Hello Ethryan, I really think Shiloh gave some great advice, and believe me I really understand how you feel.  We all fail God so badly, it is hard to understand how God can even care about us, even Paul the great Apostle speaks of this in Romans 7:14-23 over and over again saying the good that he would do, he does not; and the evil that he would not do, he ends up doing.  So Paul cries out at the end of this chapter these words:  24)  O wretched man that i am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?    25)  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.  So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.   Romans 7:24-25

I have definitely had problems with this as of late.

My only advice for any believer is never hold a grudge, we may think we have a right too, but Jesus tells us to be forgiven we must forgive other also, Matthew 6:14-15   The Christian is not known by his / her sinlessness; but Jesus says we are know by our love one for another--John 13:34-35; love that only the Holy Spirit can produce see Romans 5:5 and I Peter 1:22

I have struggled with holding grudges, especially in the past, so at those times, I don’t think I am worthy of being forgiven (if I don’t do the same).  At times like those, I hope for God’s grace and mercy to pardon my sins.

When I have trouble with grudges I always take it to God in pray, and tell Him that this person has hurt me to much for me to forgive and ask for help from the Holy Spirit, because if it is left up to me, I just can't do it.  Usually a simple pray like this does it, occasionally I really have to get into prayer so that the Holy Spirit can get a hold of my heart.

But if you read Luke 11:38-41, I think you will find the answer that Jesus gave concerning this matter.   

Heard a sermon today about when you have problems with difficult people who hurt you (the example given was in a workplace), to ask God for a transfer.

Not a job transfer, lol. 

1 Peter 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

 

By taking all your anxiety, or cares to Jesus, you are asking for a transfer lol.  I liked the wording of asking for a transfer!

 

And it continued of course on how God will bring difficult people into your life to create a change in our hearts, to mold us to be more like Jesus.  
 

Yes,don't ask for a transfer to another department give that person to Jesus.Proverbs 25:22 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head,And the Lord will reward you.

Then kill them with kindness.

Hard to grasp that heaping coals on someone's head is being kind to them!  Just sounds like the opposite.  

[missmuffet]

Hello Ethryan, I really think Shiloh gave some great advice, and believe me I really understand how you feel.  We all fail God so badly, it is hard to understand how God can even care about us, even Paul the great Apostle speaks of this in Romans 7:14-23 over and over again saying the good that he would do, he does not; and the evil that he would not do, he ends up doing.  So Paul cries out at the end of this chapter these words:  24)  O wretched man that i am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?    25)  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.  So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.   Romans 7:24-25

I have definitely had problems with this as of late.

My only advice for any believer is never hold a grudge, we may think we have a right too, but Jesus tells us to be forgiven we must forgive other also, Matthew 6:14-15   The Christian is not known by his / her sinlessness; but Jesus says we are know by our love one for another--John 13:34-35; love that only the Holy Spirit can produce see Romans 5:5 and I Peter 1:22

I have struggled with holding grudges, especially in the past, so at those times, I don’t think I am worthy of being forgiven (if I don’t do the same).  At times like those, I hope for God’s grace and mercy to pardon my sins.

When I have trouble with grudges I always take it to God in pray, and tell Him that this person has hurt me to much for me to forgive and ask for help from the Holy Spirit, because if it is left up to me, I just can't do it.  Usually a simple pray like this does it, occasionally I really have to get into prayer so that the Holy Spirit can get a hold of my heart.

But if you read Luke 11:38-41, I think you will find the answer that Jesus gave concerning this matter.   

Heard a sermon today about when you have problems with difficult people who hurt you (the example given was in a workplace), to ask God for a transfer.

Not a job transfer, lol. 

1 Peter 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

 

By taking all your anxiety, or cares to Jesus, you are asking for a transfer lol.  I liked the wording of asking for a transfer!

 

And it continued of course on how God will bring difficult people into your life to create a change in our hearts, to mold us to be more like Jesus.  
 

Yes,don't ask for a transfer to another department give that person to Jesus.Proverbs 25:22 For so you will heap coals of fire on his head,And the Lord will reward you.

Then kill them with kindness.

Hard to grasp that heaping coals on someone's head is being kind to them!  Just sounds like the opposite.  

It is symbolism.There is a lot of it in the Bible.

[gdemoss]

Coals heaped upon the head I am led to believe refers to that which is leading your enemy to seek your hurt. The flesh and blood human is not your real enemy.  We want to save them from that which leads them to distruction.

[hmbld]

My understanding is Jeff got it right. 

[Guest shiloh357]

The Imitation of Christ is rife with false teachings, such as the belief that we can attain perfection in this life, something the Bible never says.   

 

So Jesus gave us a false command?

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

 

 

Matthew 5:48 

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

So scripture tells us to be perfect and how to be perfect, but that's a lie?

James 1:4 

And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

1 John 2:5

But whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

 

1 John 4:12 

No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

 

Philippians 2:14-15 

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

 

2 Corinthians 7:1 

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

 

 

Matthew 19:21 

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

 

Luke 6:40 

A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher

 

 

 

There is a world of difference between the word used for "perfect" in the Greek in Matt. 5:48 and the concept of sinless perfection.  

Shiloh, The Imitation of Christ does not call for absolute sinless perfection.    I've read the book myself.   

This is what he says about perfection:

 Every perfection in this life has some imperfection mixed with it and
   no learning of ours is without some darkness. Humble knowledge of self
   is a surer path to God than the ardent pursuit of learning. Not that
   learning is to be considered evil, or knowledge, which is good in
   itself and so ordained by God; but a clean conscience and virtuous life
   ought always to be preferred. Many often err and accomplish little or
   nothing because they try to become learned rather than to live well.

3rd chapter

 

You are barking up the wrong tree here.  

 

 

 

I am not sure you have read the whole thing, because he has a lot more to say about attaining perfection than that.   Perfection "in this life"  is not the perfection he talks about attaining in other parts of the book.   In other places he is talking about attaining sinless perfection through the Eucharist and the saints and other things.

[enoob57]

The Imitation of Christ is rife with false teachings, such as the belief that we can attain perfection in this life, something the Bible never says.   

 

So Jesus gave us a false command?

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

 

 

Matthew 5:48 

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

So scripture tells us to be perfect and how to be perfect, but that's a lie?

James 1:4 

And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

1 John 2:5

But whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

 

1 John 4:12 

No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

 

Philippians 2:14-15 

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

 

2 Corinthians 7:1 

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

 

 

Matthew 19:21 

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

 

Luke 6:40 

A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher

 

 

 

There is a world of difference between the word used for "perfect" in the Greek in Matt. 5:48 and the concept of sinless perfection.  

Shiloh, The Imitation of Christ does not call for absolute sinless perfection.    I've read the book myself.   

This is what he says about perfection:

 Every perfection in this life has some imperfection mixed with it and
   no learning of ours is without some darkness. Humble knowledge of self
   is a surer path to God than the ardent pursuit of learning. Not that
   learning is to be considered evil, or knowledge, which is good in
   itself and so ordained by God; but a clean conscience and virtuous life
   ought always to be preferred. Many often err and accomplish little or
   nothing because they try to become learned rather than to live well.

3rd chapter

 

You are barking up the wrong tree here.  

 

 

 

I am not sure you have read the whole thing, because he has a lot more to say about attaining perfection than that.   Perfection "in this life"  is not the perfection he talks about attaining in other parts of the book.   In other places he is talking about attaining sinless perfection through the Eucharist and the saints and other things.

 

Book 4 Chapter 15
Then shall he see and abound, then shall his heart marvel and be enlarged within him, because the Hand of the Lord is with him and in the hollow of that Hand he has placed himself forever. Thus shall the man be blessed who seeks God with all his heart and has not regarded his soul in vain. Such a one, receiving the Holy Eucharist, >merits the grace of divine union< because he looks not on his own thoughts, nor to his own comfort, but above all devotion and consolation to the glory and honor of God.
(from Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 1999, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Edited October 5, 2015 by enoob57

[thereselittleflower]

The Imitation of Christ is rife with false teachings, such as the belief that we can attain perfection in this life, something the Bible never says.   

 

So Jesus gave us a false command?

Matthew 5:48

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect

 

 

Matthew 5:48 

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

So scripture tells us to be perfect and how to be perfect, but that's a lie?

James 1:4 

And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

 

1 John 2:5

But whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him:

 

1 John 4:12 

No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

 

Philippians 2:14-15 

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing, 15 That you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

 

2 Corinthians 7:1 

Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

 

 

Matthew 19:21 

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

 

 

Luke 6:40 

A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher

 

 

 

There is a world of difference between the word used for "perfect" in the Greek in Matt. 5:48 and the concept of sinless perfection.  

Shiloh, The Imitation of Christ does not call for absolute sinless perfection.    I've read the book myself.   

This is what he says about perfection:

 Every perfection in this life has some imperfection mixed with it and
   no learning of ours is without some darkness. Humble knowledge of self
   is a surer path to God than the ardent pursuit of learning. Not that
   learning is to be considered evil, or knowledge, which is good in
   itself and so ordained by God; but a clean conscience and virtuous life
   ought always to be preferred. Many often err and accomplish little or
   nothing because they try to become learned rather than to live well.

3rd chapter

 

You are barking up the wrong tree here.  

 

 

 

I am not sure you have read the whole thing, because he has a lot more to say about attaining perfection than that.   Perfection "in this life"  is not the perfection he talks about attaining in other parts of the book.   In other places he is talking about attaining sinless perfection through the Eucharist and the saints and other things.

 

Book 4 Chapter 15
Then shall he see and abound, then shall his heart marvel and be enlarged within him, because the Hand of the Lord is with him and in the hollow of that Hand he has placed himself forever. Thus shall the man be blessed who seeks God with all his heart and has not regarded his soul in vain. Such a one, receiving the Holy Eucharist, >merits the grace of divine union< because he looks not on his own thoughts, nor to his own comfort, but above all devotion and consolation to the glory and honor of God.
(from Thomas a Kempis: The Imitation of Christ, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 1999, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Everything he talks about regarding perfection in this life is indeed controlled by what I quoted above.

One does not have to explain themselves over and over again.

Any other understanding is taking his words out of context, which you did above as if he was saying anything different than what scripture says - which is clearly divine union with God:

1 Corinthians 6

17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

Ephesians 5:30 

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[enoob57]

 

Everything he talks about regarding perfection in this life is indeed controlled by what I quoted above.

One does not have to explain themselves over and over again.

Any other understanding is taking his words out of context, which you did above as if he was saying anything different than what scripture says - which is clearly divine union with God:

1 Corinthians 6

17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

Ephesians 5:30 

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

receiving the Holy Eucharist, >merits the grace of divine union< 

You don't see this in error? That a man can take of bread and wine and make it to merit the grace of divine union?
Let me show you where Jesus says it is error
Matt 23:16-33
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
KJV
Love, Steven

[thereselittleflower]

 

Everything he talks about regarding perfection in this life is indeed controlled by what I quoted above.

One does not have to explain themselves over and over again.

Any other understanding is taking his words out of context, which you did above as if he was saying anything different than what scripture says - which is clearly divine union with God:

1 Corinthians 6

17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

Ephesians 5:30 

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

receiving the Holy Eucharist, >merits the grace of divine union< 

You don't see this in error? That a man can take of bread and wine and make it to merit the grace of divine union?
Let me show you where Jesus says it is error
Matt 23:16-33
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
KJV
Love, Steven

Steven,  if I were to try to explain what is in scripture in John 6 again, this thread will likely also get removed, so I am unable to address your concern.

All I can say is you are very much misunderstanding what you are reading.

 

 

[enoob57]

 

Everything he talks about regarding perfection in this life is indeed controlled by what I quoted above.

One does not have to explain themselves over and over again.

Any other understanding is taking his words out of context, which you did above as if he was saying anything different than what scripture says - which is clearly divine union with God:

1 Corinthians 6

17But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

Ephesians 5:30 

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

receiving the Holy Eucharist, >merits the grace of divine union< 

You don't see this in error? That a man can take of bread and wine and make it to merit the grace of divine union?
Let me show you where Jesus says it is error
Matt 23:16-33
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
KJV
Love, Steven

Steven,  if I were to try to explain what is in scripture in John 6 again, this thread will likely also get removed, so I am unable to address your concern.

All I can say is you are very much misunderstanding what you are reading.

 

 

No mam I am not... it is a given that this world, and the things in this world, are used by satan for furthering of his lies... we
who have been born out of this mess know the end of this created essence- how it awaits total destruction once God's Word
is 100% fulfilled within it's time... thus we do not look to the things that pass away for the everlasting! The Spiritual Nature is
Spirit everlasting and that which 'IS' of s/Spirit passes not away... therefore we put no confidence in this created essence as to
continuance but upon God and His Word that forms a faith within us awaiting the eternal state where sin has never been nor
considered... the subtlety of satan is to get us to rely upon created things to achieve what God has clearly said/warned will not
produce eternal realities; in fact everything God has created can be made an idol if it is placed before God and this is what your
religious sect has done...  the "Holy Eucharist"  is not anything that you teach by deception but is merely the physical elements
from start to finish and one day will be no more BUT the Spiritual reality of The Body of Christ that is now in Heaven where we
through the partaking of The Lord's Supper do take our minds in s/Spiritual reflection of His death, burial, resurrection and to
the place where He truly 'IS' and so we also are to be s/Spiritually
Col 3:1-3
3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
KJV
Love, Steven