Guest shiloh357 Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Ezra, note the attributes of the disembodied spirits in this account.Luke 16:19–31 (AV)19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.This is not parable or poetic language this is at the very least anthropomorphic language about the spirits who are no longer in human bodies. This disproves your unfounded stance that one must be in a body to suffer torment.Mark 9:44–48 (AV)44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Worm = (condemned) spirit What makes you think that either of those passages are referencing disembodies spirits?What makes you think they don't?Because what we see in Scripture are people who feel pain and, at least in hell, can remember their past. Disembodied spirits have no central nervous system and cannot feel pain. It is Greek culture that sees us as disembodied spirits. To the ancient Greeks, when we die, our consciousness is like a wisp of smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,657 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2015 Ezra, note the attributes of the disembodied spirits in this account.Luke 16:19–31 (AV)19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.This is not parable or poetic language this is at the very least anthropomorphic language about the spirits who are no longer in human bodies. This disproves your unfounded stance that one must be in a body to suffer torment.Mark 9:44–48 (AV)44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.Worm = (condemned) spirit What makes you think that either of those passages are referencing disembodies spirits?What makes you think they don't?Because what we see in Scripture are people who feel pain and, at least in hell, can remember their past. Disembodied spirits have no central nervous system and cannot feel pain. It is Greek culture that sees us as disembodied spirits. To the ancient Greeks, when we die, our consciousness is like a wisp of smoke. I guess you missed my posts about the interaction of the spirit and the body. That spirits are not wills of the wisp. It is not only the Greek culture, Shiloh, that mentions disembodied spirit...2 Corinthians 12:1–5 (AV)1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.Would not have entered his mind if it were just a Greek way of thinking.Also:2 Corinthians 5:1–8 (AV)1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.This refers to our disembodied spirits and the ultimate clothing / building will be our resurrected / perfected bodies from earth and not some replacement bodies from heaven but which will be in the new heaven-earth (Isaiah 65:17, 66:22) in the general resurrection (Revelation 20) and new creation (2 Peter 3:13 / Revelation 21:1):Romans 8:23 (AV)23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 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JohnD Posted October 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,657 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2015 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18 (AV)13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.How can they rise when Jesus comes back if they are already raised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,657 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) Acts 2:29 (AV)29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.Unless you are going to try to argue that David's remains were not there any longer, his body remained in the tomb while his spirit was in Abraham's Bosom until Jesus took him and the rest in Abraham's Bosom in their disembodied spirits to heaven:Ephesians 4:8–10 (AV)8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)The captivity were those disembodied spirits who were faithful to God's amount of revelation in their time awaiting the cross of Christ in Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:19-31) until Jesus in his disembodied Spirit came there preached the victory over the condemned (1 Peter 3:19) and took them to heaven the same day (Luke 23:43) between the time he gave up the ghost (Mark 15:37-39, Luke 23:46, John 19:30) at 3:00 PM until sunset 6:00 PM.P.S. John 20:17 refers to Jesus having not yet ascended to heaven in his resurrected state.And if you think about it, Jesus had a Spirit without a body before he took upon himself the incarnation. The Father and the Holy Spirit and the angels are Spirits without bodies.Hm, not sounding too much like just a Greek concept any longer is it? Edited October 20, 2015 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 20, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,657 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 20, 2015 The human body is a masterful work of art. But without the spirit inside it the central nervous system can't feel a thing. I submit to you that it takes both to make human bodies animated to even feel pain or joy etc.It is only arrogant human presumption that the spirit cannot feel pain or joy independent of human bodies. Are angels without joy, pain, sight, hearing?What do the scriptures say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted October 20, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted October 20, 2015 I have watched and seen many arguments boil down to both sides trying to win based upon word usage and such the like. My question is can anyone show me anywhere in the entire bible where we are instructed to or shown by example that this is the proper method of disclosing the truth about biblical interpretation? Please enlighten me.Word usage is very important. I don't know why people ask for Scripture verses they know don't exist. This is about basic hermeneutics that we employ every single day in other contexts. For some reason, people think that it should be discarded when reading the Bible. Understanding how words are used keeps us from false doctrine and people making up wacky ideas based on how "spiritual" they think they are.Any schmuck can hop on here and say, "The Holy Spirit told me such and such" and they do that to pull the rug out from under anyone who will challenge what they think they got from God. I am not under any obligation to accept that anyone hears from God and I actually encouraged by scripture to test such claims.Hermeneutics is one of the best ways to challenge false claims. By looking at how words are used in Scripture and understanding their historical and cultural contextual usage, we get a glimpse into how the original audiences would have understood received what the author was saying.Tell me this Gary... What if I decided to ignore how you use words and fill up your words what I decide you meant? Would you appreciate me doing that to you? If you don't like being treated that way, why would it be appropriate to take God's words and ignore word usage?I was actually hoping that you would be able to furnish scripture to support your position that I had never considered before.I agree with you that there are those, like me, who have earnestly believed they were being taught by the Holy Spirit yet were deceived and went about deceiving others. I am guilty and therefore have reservations regarding such claims.I have begun researching the topic further for I am not convinced either way at this moment in time. I agree with you that there is a necessity to seek to understand how another is using the words they speak or write. The weakness I see in your argument deals with the fact that those of us living today at the same time in the same culture cannot agree on tge interpretation of words in our own time much less how they may have been used by people of another time and language. Also I submit to the fact that your logic is good. The missing link for me lies in no way to pull it together by showing it is proper from scripture. I will continue to study and I thank you for sharing with me your understanding. How can I produce a verse that doesn't exist?? The Bible doesn't say anything about studying word useage. I am making an argument from the standpoint of literary analysis which we always use whenever we read anything else. The problem is that sometimes this can be a nuisance if we have an agenda and hermeneutics are an obstacle to that agenda. Suddenly, we poo-poo hermeneutics as "unspiritual." I think we do quite well interpreting how each other writes, for the most part. I don't think we have any kind of major inability to understand each other one bit.Why would understanding how words are used be inappropriate or improper when handling the Bible? I don't see how you could make a case for a scenario that would make it better for me to ignore how the author of Scripture uses a word simply because I prefer the word to mean something else??? That is how cults operate. The cults that use the Bible always muddy the water about what words mean in the Bible. They redefine key terms to their own liking. Hi Shiloh, it is probably time we take this to its own thread. I am intrigued. I have many questions and am studying the topic and appreciate your patience concerning my being but a child in understanding (a rebelious one at that at times). I will prepare a topic for discussion and ask that you contribute. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuelf324 Posted October 22, 2015 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 210 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 160 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/28/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2015 You don't get destroyed and cease to exist in hell.Its eternal damn action meaning your death is continuous and ongoing. Hell isn't your final stop is merely a waiting area. At the great white throne of judgment. You will get the degree of fire based on your works then you'll be thrown into the lake of fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted October 24, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2015 (edited) Can anyone declare to me what, where and when hell is, in a short paragraph or sentence? Edited October 24, 2015 by Kan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted October 24, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,147 Content Per Day: 4.61 Reputation: 27,842 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2015 Blessings Everyone.... From what I am reading here I see a lot of speculation,,,,,,,,I don't think anyone has really been able to prove that the body will not have the potential to feel pain without the CNS(upon death & eternal damnation),,,,,,,that would truly be "leaning on one's own understanding".... I believe that anyone who ends up in hell is in for the shock & surprise of all time,something that is simply indescribable,,,,whether anyone here is even the slightest bit accurate I am sure it is much worse than we can imagine So I am just wondering,,,,,,,what is the point of this discussion(at this point),when all is said & done?After 115 posts it seems to have run it's course,imo...... God Bless us all & to God be the Glory ,,,,,,& our thanksgiving ,,,,thank you Jesus that we are not going to hell!!! With love-in Christ,Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 24, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 909 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,657 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,839 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2015 Blessings Everyone.... From what I am reading here I see a lot of speculation,,,,,,,,I don't think anyone has really been able to prove that the body will not have the potential to feel pain without the CNS(upon death & eternal damnation),,,,,,,that would truly be "leaning on one's own understanding".... I believe that anyone who ends up in hell is in for the shock & surprise of all time,something that is simply indescribable,,,,whether anyone here is even the slightest bit accurate I am sure it is much worse than we can imagine So I am just wondering,,,,,,,what is the point of this discussion(at this point),when all is said & done?After 115 posts it seems to have run it's course,imo...... God Bless us all & to God be the Glory ,,,,,,& our thanksgiving ,,,,thank you Jesus that we are not going to hell!!! With love-in Christ,Kwik Speculation on your part setting aside all the scriptures that were cited. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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