Hell Needs Clarification

[missmuffet]

Shiloh does not want to pay any attention to the scriptures I showed him on the subject of the place of hell / lake of fire or the temporal bodies of the resurrected doomed. So, you can try locking horns with him on these if you wish, Kan. I choose to ignore the repeated objections that have been answered.  

Shiloh and JohnD, we can safely conclude from the Bible that hell is cast into the lake of fire. If hell was a place, and it is cast into the lake of fire, it can obviously be burned out of existence, so that it longer exists, or is incorporated into another state.

This lake of fire then is the same as hell today, except it abides "inside" the new heaven and earth.

So hell is a place under the earth now, and ends at the judgement from the white throne. 

Let's say someone has been burning in hell for about 4000 years, do they know what they are burning for, or do they have to wait for the judgement after the 1000 years?

We can only go by the examples provided for us in scripture.

Luke 16:19–31 (NASB95)

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

The rich man in hell did not object or question why he was in hell. Abraham may have been informing him why he was in hell in verse 25 or perhaps it was a reminder of what he already knew.

Does that answer your question, Kan?

 

 

John, I see nothing in any of your posts that indicates the either the location of the Lake of Fire or the idea that sinners will be resurrected with temporary bodies.   You appear to be penciling your assumptions into the Scripture sources you present.    The Bible does not tell us, where the Lake of  Fire is, exactly, nor does it say that sinners will have temporal bodies.  

Malachi 4:3 (NASB95)

3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 22:44 (NASB95)

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet” ’?

Romans 16:20 (NASB95)

20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Etc.

I get the imagery of standing over a bowing defeated foe and ritualistically putting a foot on them. But then the ashes of Malachi 4:3 came to my attention and the timing mentioned and it gave deeper meaning to the rest of the passages we (certainly I) took for granted only to mean that ritualistic imagery of defeating a foe. But now I see it as God putting all enemies / unbelievers in a place eternally far below the surface of where the believing will be standing where their bodies will burn into ash and "their worm" shall never die (Isaiah 66 said it once and Mark 9 said it three times).

I am repeating the scriptures so to dispel the notion that this is not in scripture.

  You are trying to take metaphors and apply them at face-value in order to force the meaning you want, onto the text.    This text in Malachi 4 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and those who rejected Jesus.   It is not talking about people being burned up in Hell or the Lake of Fire.  "Under your feet"  is not a geographical location. It is a metaphor for having been completely defeated and humiliated.

So says you.

I'll go by what the Bible says, thank you.

And consider the source of those who presume to make such unqualified decrees.

 

Actually you're not going by what the Bible says.  You are forcing your immature, shallow theological agenda onto the Bible.  You simply reading into the text what you want.  If my decrees were unqualified, you could refute them, but you can't, and you know it.  You're ignoring context which is about the judgment of Jerusalem and forcing something that is not even remotely close to the actual context. 

I think some people are going to be very surprised one day shiloh.

[JohnD]

Shiloh does not want to pay any attention to the scriptures I showed him on the subject of the place of hell / lake of fire or the temporal bodies of the resurrected doomed. So, you can try locking horns with him on these if you wish, Kan. I choose to ignore the repeated objections that have been answered.  

Shiloh and JohnD, we can safely conclude from the Bible that hell is cast into the lake of fire. If hell was a place, and it is cast into the lake of fire, it can obviously be burned out of existence, so that it longer exists, or is incorporated into another state.

This lake of fire then is the same as hell today, except it abides "inside" the new heaven and earth.

So hell is a place under the earth now, and ends at the judgement from the white throne. 

Let's say someone has been burning in hell for about 4000 years, do they know what they are burning for, or do they have to wait for the judgement after the 1000 years?

We can only go by the examples provided for us in scripture.

Luke 16:19–31 (NASB95)

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

The rich man in hell did not object or question why he was in hell. Abraham may have been informing him why he was in hell in verse 25 or perhaps it was a reminder of what he already knew.

Does that answer your question, Kan?

 

 

John, I see nothing in any of your posts that indicates the either the location of the Lake of Fire or the idea that sinners will be resurrected with temporary bodies.   You appear to be penciling your assumptions into the Scripture sources you present.    The Bible does not tell us, where the Lake of  Fire is, exactly, nor does it say that sinners will have temporal bodies.  

Malachi 4:3 (NASB95)

3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 22:44 (NASB95)

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet” ’?

Romans 16:20 (NASB95)

20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Etc.

I get the imagery of standing over a bowing defeated foe and ritualistically putting a foot on them. But then the ashes of Malachi 4:3 came to my attention and the timing mentioned and it gave deeper meaning to the rest of the passages we (certainly I) took for granted only to mean that ritualistic imagery of defeating a foe. But now I see it as God putting all enemies / unbelievers in a place eternally far below the surface of where the believing will be standing where their bodies will burn into ash and "their worm" shall never die (Isaiah 66 said it once and Mark 9 said it three times).

I am repeating the scriptures so to dispel the notion that this is not in scripture.

  You are trying to take metaphors and apply them at face-value in order to force the meaning you want, onto the text.    This text in Malachi 4 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and those who rejected Jesus.   It is not talking about people being burned up in Hell or the Lake of Fire.  "Under your feet"  is not a geographical location. It is a metaphor for having been completely defeated and humiliated.

So says you.

I'll go by what the Bible says, thank you.

And consider the source of those who presume to make such unqualified decrees.

 

Actually you're not going by what the Bible says.  You are forcing your immature, shallow theological agenda onto the Bible.  You simply reading into the text what you want.  If my decrees were unqualified, you could refute them, but you can't, and you know it.  You're ignoring context which is about the judgment of Jerusalem and forcing something that is not even remotely close to the actual context. 

I have refuted them by taking into consideration the context of all of scripture.

Your insistence on taking potshots at me is the actual display of immaturity under defeat.

[Kan]

The Pagans in the days of Joshua were particularly indifferent to the feelings of others, even their own children. This condition was developed over a long period of time, gradually making the people more vile and stupid.

They used to burn their live children, infants to their idols. They also took pleasure in the torture and death of others and had almost daily rituals. This is the lowest place a human mind can come to, and God said they must be scattered abroad, dispossessed and wiped out. 

So if God hated their deeds of cruelty, how does your god do the same, no, a lot worse, He protracts it over endless time. You have dragged the name of God to the bottomless pit and made Him worse than the devil.

The Papacy studied how to bring the maximum amount of pain, spiritual, mental, emotional and physical, for the maximum extension of time, to an innocent human being.

If someone was a criminal, we know that justice is not not served by a punishment greater than the crime.

Paganism and the Papacy are the direct enemies of God, they are actuated by Satan himself.

But the Pagan doctrine of hell is so widespread that people cannot see themselves clear of it, and every time they read the Bible they automatically weave their garbage into it. The simple cure for that is to pray and stick to the rules of English grammar. You don't need a doctorate in Greek.

At the time of Christ this doctrine was so prevalent, that He spoke a parable to bring home the point of equality and compassion, a lesson which would come to mind every time someone thought of the concept of hell. But it is just a parable, not an exegesis on subterranean geography.

It is not hard to show how texts are misread to mean what people want them to mean.

[gdemoss]

To bring in the idea of eternal torment and burning one should consider what Jesus taught about unclean spirits.  When one goes out of a man it goes about seeking rest but finding none.  As of today it can come back into the old one and even bring friends.  What if when he returned he found the door sealed shut?  What if there were no place of rest for him?  What if all he could do was wander about seeking rest but finding none?  That describes the 'state' of eternal torment to me.  A burning desire that is never quenched.  Ever had no rest for your feet and had them begin to burn?  Muscles burning from exaustion?  Ugh! 

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh does not want to pay any attention to the scriptures I showed him on the subject of the place of hell / lake of fire or the temporal bodies of the resurrected doomed. So, you can try locking horns with him on these if you wish, Kan. I choose to ignore the repeated objections that have been answered.  

Shiloh and JohnD, we can safely conclude from the Bible that hell is cast into the lake of fire. If hell was a place, and it is cast into the lake of fire, it can obviously be burned out of existence, so that it longer exists, or is incorporated into another state.

This lake of fire then is the same as hell today, except it abides "inside" the new heaven and earth.

So hell is a place under the earth now, and ends at the judgement from the white throne. 

Let's say someone has been burning in hell for about 4000 years, do they know what they are burning for, or do they have to wait for the judgement after the 1000 years?

We can only go by the examples provided for us in scripture.

Luke 16:19–31 (NASB95)

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’

25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’

27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—

28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’

30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’

31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

The rich man in hell did not object or question why he was in hell. Abraham may have been informing him why he was in hell in verse 25 or perhaps it was a reminder of what he already knew.

Does that answer your question, Kan?

 

 

John, I see nothing in any of your posts that indicates the either the location of the Lake of Fire or the idea that sinners will be resurrected with temporary bodies.   You appear to be penciling your assumptions into the Scripture sources you present.    The Bible does not tell us, where the Lake of  Fire is, exactly, nor does it say that sinners will have temporal bodies.  

Malachi 4:3 (NASB95)

3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 22:44 (NASB95)

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet” ’?

Romans 16:20 (NASB95)

20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

Etc.

I get the imagery of standing over a bowing defeated foe and ritualistically putting a foot on them. But then the ashes of Malachi 4:3 came to my attention and the timing mentioned and it gave deeper meaning to the rest of the passages we (certainly I) took for granted only to mean that ritualistic imagery of defeating a foe. But now I see it as God putting all enemies / unbelievers in a place eternally far below the surface of where the believing will be standing where their bodies will burn into ash and "their worm" shall never die (Isaiah 66 said it once and Mark 9 said it three times).

I am repeating the scriptures so to dispel the notion that this is not in scripture.

  You are trying to take metaphors and apply them at face-value in order to force the meaning you want, onto the text.    This text in Malachi 4 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and those who rejected Jesus.   It is not talking about people being burned up in Hell or the Lake of Fire.  "Under your feet"  is not a geographical location. It is a metaphor for having been completely defeated and humiliated.

So says you.

I'll go by what the Bible says, thank you.

And consider the source of those who presume to make such unqualified decrees.

 

Actually you're not going by what the Bible says.  You are forcing your immature, shallow theological agenda onto the Bible.  You simply reading into the text what you want.  If my decrees were unqualified, you could refute them, but you can't, and you know it.  You're ignoring context which is about the judgment of Jerusalem and forcing something that is not even remotely close to the actual context. 

I have refuted them by taking into consideration the context of all of scripture.

Your insistence on taking potshots at me is the actual display of immaturity under defeat.

I am not taking potshots at you.   You are ignoring context.   Context pertains to a specific line of thought.  You ignoring the intent of the author of the texts that you cite in order to foist your false teachings on others.   There is no such thing as "the context of all of Scripture."   That is not how context works.   You have views about Hell that you want to promote and you pervert and contort Scripture support that  view.     You have not refuted anything.  All you have done is voice your objection and deflected away from your errors.    

[Guest shiloh357]

I have made no contradictions.

[enoob57]

I have made no contradictions.

sure. ...

 Well there's actually a few. Start with these two points

 

 

1. The Bible does not claim that life and separation from God are opposites....Yet you claim this.

 

 

2. explain to me the inherent contradiction with Lazarus and the rich man because those by your interpretation of this parable, those in hell can communicate with those in heaven and it would appear we can also see each other. Not much of a seperation no is it

The Spirit of God is not found in these statements. Neither is the study to show oneself approved. So either ignorant baby stuff with wasted words or other...   Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

I have made no contradictions.

sure. ...

 Well there's actually a few. Start with these two points

 

 

1. The Bible does not claim that life and separation from God are opposites....Yet you claim this.

 

 

2. explain to me the inherent contradiction with Lazarus and the rich man because those by your interpretation of this parable, those in hell can communicate with those in heaven and it would appear we can also see each other. Not much of a seperation no is it

 

 

Further  "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

 

 

Well how can that be when we see Lazarus communicating with those in heaven while on fire

 

 

 

 

Spiritual death is always demonstrated in Scripture to be separation from God.  That's what I said. 

Lazarus didnt' say anything to anyone in that passage.  It was the rich man speaking to Abraham.   Yeah, there is a big separation given that there is no way to traverse the gulf between Abraham and the rich man.  

Evidently, you didn't read my comments about separation very well, as you are asking me about what didn't say.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

I have made no contradictions.

sure. ...

 Well there's actually a few. Start with these two points

 

 

1. The Bible does not claim that life and separation from God are opposites....Yet you claim this.

 

 

2. explain to me the inherent contradiction with Lazarus and the rich man because those by your interpretation of this parable, those in hell can communicate with those in heaven and it would appear we can also see each other. Not much of a seperation no is it

 

 

Further  "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

 

 

Well how can that be when we see Lazarus communicating with those in heaven while on fire

 

 

 

 

Since this wasn't addressed to me, I will only add my 2 cent's worth to point 2.  I believe the parables of Jesus are all teaching examples of real life and/or death situations.  At the time this parable was set, neither the rich man or Lazarus had received final judgment.  The rich man was in hell (but not the final hell) and Lazarus was in heaven (but not the final heaven).  So this was a temporary place for both, with a gulf of some kind in between.  At the end, final judgment will occur and we will be judged according to Jesus' work on the cross, or our man-made works (which are as filthy rags).  In the new heaven, the former things will not be remembered by those of us saved by God's grace and the shed blood of our savior Jesus.  I see no contradiction here.

[Montana Marv]

To All

First of all; Paradise/Bosom of Abraham (as the Jews called it) was adjacent to Hades.  Righteous souls in Paradise, Unrighteous souls in Hades.  A deep chasm separated the two. So as Jesus said, one could see across the chasm. This is the prime reason that Jesus had to be in the heart of the earth for 3 days.  Visiting those in Paradise; your time here is almost over.

Eph 4: 7-10b - But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.  This is why it says; "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men".  What does "he ascended" mean, except he also descended to the lower earthly regions.  He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens....

So when Christ ascended on high He brought Paradise  (those captives) with Him.  Hades being isolated.

In Christ

Montana Marv