Bonky Posted January 7, 2016 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2016 What system does the 2nd law of thermo apply to, closed or open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted January 7, 2016 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,810 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: I thought I was clear enough. From Wikipedia, "the second law of thermodynamics states that in every real process the sum of the entropies of all participating bodies is increased. In the idealized limiting case of a reversible process, this sum remains unchanged. The increase in entropy accounts for the irreversibility of natural processes, and the asymmetry between future and past." In layman's terms, you can't create a perpetual motion machine. Also in layman's terms, natural processes lead to decay until equilibrium is reached. Stars decay, galaxies decay, radiation decays, people decay, etc. More complex organisms are not being formed. Everything is breaking down. But interesting enough, the universe is still expanding! At some point in time, the universe will not support life as we know it. There's no basis for a worm that has two of five senses would ever develop a third, on its own. A good movie on this subject is the SF movie I Origins. I would think both an Evolutionist and a Creationist would find the movie enjoyable, albeit, a little slow thru the first half of the movie. Well, this is not what it says. What it says is that decay increases in a closed system. The earth is not a closed system, since it gets low entropy radiation from the sun at a pretty high rate. The sun, which also should not exist if the universe started decaying from day one. And, adult people should not exist either, since they are more complex than when they were kids or simple duplicating cells. I wonder why there is a second law if it is so obviously violated everyday Simple mathematical computation show that you can pack all of evolution in a much shorter time while still not breaking any thermodynamical laws. On account of the very low entropy of radiation coming from the sun if it were used with 100% efficiency. So, before we can apply for the Nobel prize by showing how obviously wrong modern science is, what else have you got? siegi Edited January 7, 2016 by siegi91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonky Posted January 7, 2016 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 6 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 738 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 346 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/28/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2016 Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,059 Content Per Day: 14.24 Reputation: 5,193 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2016 32 minutes ago, siegi91 said: Well, this is not what it says. What it says is that decay increases in a closed system. The earth is not a closed system, since it gets low entropy radiation from the sun at a pretty high rate. The sun, which also should not exist if the universe started decaying from day one. And, adult people should not exist either, since they are more complex than when they were kids or simple duplicating cells. I wonder why there is a second law if it is so obviously violated everyday Simple mathematical computation show that you can pack all of evolution in a much shorter time while still not breaking any thermodynamical laws. On account of the very low entropy of radiation coming from the sun if it were used with 100% efficiency. So, before we can apply for the Nobel prize by showing how obviously wrong modern science is, what else have you got? siegi The universe is a closed system. You are only considering Earth and you've forgotten the relationship between mass and energy. You know E = M C2. No Nobel prize for you. If the sun's radiation causes life, we should be seeing life everywhere! It may be news to you, but we are not. The massive extinction events on Earth in its history, you going to blame that on a lack of radiation or too much? We had a nice conversation going on. Don't get ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegi91 Posted January 7, 2016 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 12 Topic Count: 35 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,810 Content Per Day: 1.19 Reputation: 249 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/04/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2016 1 minute ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said: The universe is a closed system. You are only considering Earth and you've forgotten the relationship between mass and energy. You know E = M C2. No Nobel prize for you. If the sun's radiation causes life, we should be seeing life everywhere! It may be news to you, but we are not. The massive extinction events on Earth in its history, you going to blame that on a lack of radiation or too much? We had a nice conversation going on. Don't get ridiculous. True, but the same computation shows that entropy increases, because of life, for the universe as a whole. Actually, some defined life (Schoendiger) as something that increases entropy more efficiently than no life. So, no obvious violation of the second law here. On the contrary: life is an efficient entropy killer, globally. And i never said that the sun radiation caused life. Nobody knows what started life. I wonder where you read that. What I said is that it accounts for the apparent local violation of the second law. Your car is also not necessarily caused by petrol, but it can work because of it. So, I am not sure what your point is. And I am not sure either what you mean with E = mc^2. That is a relativistic equation. Is that related to the second law? How? siegi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SavedOnebyGrace Posted January 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,059 Content Per Day: 14.24 Reputation: 5,193 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/30/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted January 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, siegi91 said: True, but the same computation shows that entropy increases, because of life, for the universe as a whole. Actually, some defined life (Schoendiger) as something that increases entropy more efficiently than no life. So, no obvious violation of the second law here. On the contrary: life is an efficient entropy killer, globally. And i never said that the sun radiation caused life. Nobody knows what started life. I wonder where you read that. What I said is that it accounts for the apparent local violation of the second law. Your car is also not necessarily caused by petrol, but it can work because of it. So, I am not sure what your point is. And I am not sure either what you mean with E = mc^2. That is a relativistic equation. Is that related to the second law? How? siegi Entropy ALWAYS increases. Entropy is NOT tied to life. Let's stick to Physics and not bring pop Psychology into the discussion. Is Psychology even science? Entropy is NOT tied to life in anyway and there's no such thing as an Entropy killer. If this discussion is above your intelligence level we can quit? I don't want to hurt your feelings. You may want to put a cat in a box and not feed it for some time. I'm against cruelty to animals. As for how life began, I know. It was God, but that's before I was born. I read about Him in a book called the Bible. Good book, great reviews, a bestseller I believe. In none of my Thermodynamics courses (Classical, Applied and Theoretical) have I ever seen a violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Laws are NEVER broken. But people lacking in thoroughness sometimes mess-up experimental models. I explained E=mc2 before. Read my previous reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted January 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 8, 2016 We know Heaven is a created place. We know God lives in Heaven. Where He lived before he created Heaven is not known so it if fruitless trying to figure it out. Just as it is fruitless trying to figure out when "In the beginning," was. So, who knows when in the beginning actually was. Who knows when or what period of time, "IN THE BEGINNING" was? In Genesis it says; . . . . . Genesis 1;1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Full Stop). Genesis 1:1 does not say, 6'000 years ago God created the heaven and the earth. In John 1:1 it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1, does not say, Six thousand years ago was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, six thousand years ago? The next two verses also do not mention any time period or time when things were created. John 1: 2, The same was in the beginning with God. John 1; 3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If one rejects the gap principle one is saying, the Father and the Word sat around doing nothing throughout eternity past and about 6,000 years ago decided to do something? God the Father and the Word, before he became flesh and dwelt among us are both ETERNAL beings. We know as God, the Word had no beginning but as a Man, He had a beginning. John 1;14; "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." Jesus said in John 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Jesus never said, six thousand years ago my Father and I decided to do something, and we called that period "In the beginning" as well just to confuse the masses? I wont post the many dozens of Scriptures again proving beyond doubt that there were two great floods on the Earth as it seems even though I have posted them a few times, they are being ignored, as if they were not in the Bible at all? The beautiful part is that we are all created free moral agents, (some say they were not created by God, they were born of their mothers), but we can all say and believe what we like, God does not force anyone to believe in Him, His Son, or His Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted January 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 8, 2016 I cannot seem to be able to edit this post so I will post this as an addition to my last post. The Bible does not teach, "In the beginning," about 6,000 years ago, when the Father and the Word finally decided to do something, God, told the Word, (John 1:3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.") to create the heaven, (sun, moon, stars, galaxies) and the Earth, (dry land) and then say; "O'h, look at that, you messed up big time, there is no light, no sun, moon, stars, and the Earth, (dry land isn't dry land at all, its entirely covered by deep water? Better fix that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted January 8, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted January 8, 2016 1 hour ago, HAZARD said: We know Heaven is a created place. We know God lives in Heaven. Where He lived before he created Heaven is not known so it if fruitless trying to figure it out. Just as it is fruitless trying to figure out when "In the beginning," was. So, who knows when in the beginning actually was. Who knows when or what period of time, "IN THE BEGINNING" was? In Genesis it says; . . . . . Genesis 1;1, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." (Full Stop). Genesis 1:1 does not say, 6'000 years ago God created the heaven and the earth. In John 1:1 it states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1, does not say, Six thousand years ago was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, six thousand years ago? The next two verses also do not mention any time period or time when things were created. John 1: 2, The same was in the beginning with God. John 1; 3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. If one rejects the gap principle one is saying, the Father and the Word sat around doing nothing throughout eternity past and about 6,000 years ago decided to do something? God the Father and the Word, before he became flesh and dwelt among us are both ETERNAL beings. We know as God, the Word had no beginning but as a Man, He had a beginning. John 1;14; "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." Jesus said in John 5:17, But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Jesus never said, six thousand years ago my Father and I decided to do something, and we called that period "In the beginning" as well just to confuse the masses? I wont post the many dozens of Scriptures again proving beyond doubt that there were two great floods on the Earth as it seems even though I have posted them a few times, they are being ignored, as if they were not in the Bible at all? The beautiful part is that we are all created free moral agents, (some say they were not created by God, they were born of their mothers), but we can all say and believe what we like, God does not force anyone to believe in Him, His Son, or His Word. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth + everything created in 6 days, including man + complete listing of begats from Adam to Jesus = no gap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted January 9, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2016 hmbid wrote, "Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth + everything created in 6 days, including man + complete listing of begats from Adam to Jesus = no gap!" When was "In the beginning?" If it was 6000 years ago then the Word must have had a beginning also and not be an eternal being, because scripture says "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was with God." John 1:1. And, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3. You say, IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED, and IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD. They cannot both be in the beginning 6,000 years ago, so which is it? Your saying that you believe the Word who was God and was with God, John 1:1, like the Earth which you say was created 6,000 years ago, is not an eternal being but had a beginning around the same time He created everything? See how ridiculous this is to say there was no gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. There were two great floods on this earth as Scriptures clearly teach. One was because of Lucifers rebellion, the other by man's rebellion which we know as Noah's flood. Check out the differences and tell us when the first flood occurred? LUCIFERS FLOOD I will call L.F. NOAHS FLOOD I will call NF, L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23). N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).O L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22) L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22). L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5). N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22). L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20). L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12). N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10). N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12). N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7). N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9). N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14). L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22). L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26). N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17). L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16). L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20). L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6). N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7). L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18). N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4). L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11). N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16). ITS AS EASY AS FALLING OFF A LOG TO GET THE TRUTH, ALL ONE NEEDS TO DO IS BELIEVE WHAT ONE IS READING IN GODS WORD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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