if i'm not baptised and i die

[Guest shiloh357]

What do you say shiloh, do you agree with Spurgeon's assessment that baptism (immersion in water), "becomes essential as soon as Christ commands it"? Do you believe scriptures teach that God commands immersion in water therefore, rendering it "essential"? If not, why not?

'"Essential" and "Essential for salvation" are two different things. I have not argued that batpism is nonessential. In fact I agree with Spurgeon, as his view does not go crosswise with mine. Nowhere did Spurgeon argue that baptism is necessary for salvation ANYWHERE in that text.

Spurgeon argued against those who refused to be obedient to the commandment of God to immersed in water on the grounds that they were not saved. That is why he asks them, "Is that the only way God can get you to be obedient; by making your salvation depend upon it? (My paraphrase)

Spurgeon did not make your case for you at all.

I dont' have time to get into hyper technical discussions of how Greek is used. I work a ton of overtime. Everyone uses the Greek differently I guess, especially where the word eis is used. There are other places where the Bible has not been updated to reflect the level of scholarship we have. For example, In Acts four, the greek work "pascah" for Passover is translated as "Easter," and that has not been changed even though they know it should. In Romans 10:4 Christ is the "end" of the law..." The word for end should be "goal." But they leave it as it is. There are sacred cows when it comes to translations. Changing tradition is hard.

shiloh, do you condemn me for believing and teaching that baptism in water is a necessary evidence of saving faith? If your answer is in the affirmative, please explain your reason(s).

No, because I believe it is evidence of saving faith, but I do not believe that it necessary for salvation, and even the proponents of baptismal regeneraion on this thread, have had to admit that there are potential situations where a person could accept Christ but not have access to a baptismal and die before baptism. They have conceded that it would be up to Christ to make the judgement call and thus admit that it is possible that such a person could go to heaven without being baptized. That being said, it negates the idea that it is essential for salvation. "Essential" or "necessary" are absolutes. Either it is essential for everyone's salvation, or not essential for salvation at all. No one gets a break because of mitigating circumstances. It is all or nothing.

I believe that water immersion is essential as an act of obedience and consecration, not for salvation. We are saved only by grace through faith in Christ and his finished work on the cross. It was finished on the cross, and nothing can add to that.

[Guest Mercury]

Wow there are a lot of opinions on this topic so if I may give you some bible vs instead.

Baptism and christening are two different things.

Christening is when a baby is sprinkled with water. This is a very catholic thing and is not biblical (no offence). Never in the bible was a baby baptized because children or babies have never sinned and therefore do not need to have them washed away through baptism.

What I will do is put a vs at a time on baptism and then we can discuss it.

1 Peter 3:21

"And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you (not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

Therefore getting baptized means that you can now be saved. Without water baptism you cannot be saved. It does not say that it is an outward sign of inward grace or anything along those lines. Further more it is an appeal to God for a good conscience. How can a baby appeal to God for a good conscience?

Let me know what you all think of this.

In Christ

P.S. I was christened too but I have since become a Christian and have been baptized.

P.P.S. I have not read through all the thread as it was just too long, so forgive me if I am rehashing things.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh357,Feb 28 2005, 09:53 PM

"Essential" and "Essential for salvation" are two different things. I have not argued that batpism is nonessential.

Actually shiloh, in truth you have argued that water baptism is NONESSENTIAL

[Guest shiloh357]

You agreed that baptism is ESSENTIAL. In your brand of theology what is

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh357,Mar 3 2005, 07:30 AM

I am not playing a game of conjecture.

Yeah

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

shiloh357,Mar 4 2005, 08:19 AM

No, I am not naive, you just don't know what you are talking about. Nice try at taking me out of context

I know exactly what I am talking about. I have not taken your words out of context. You said, "The Jews had little to do with persecuting Christians". I have provided examples where Jews were persecuting Christians. The Book teaches it matters not if a person is Jew or Gentile, Christians are all "one in Christ" there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.

[JesusisGod2]

Jesus answered Nicodemus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

Hello Horizoneast,

Interesting debate and I was content on just reading it until the interpretation of this particular scripture you sited.

I myself dont see where this equates to baptism at all, lets look at the scriptures in full.

5) Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

[Khristeeanos]

This has nothing to do with water baptism, it is not even hinted at.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What happens to aborted babies? Do they have no chance of going to heaven because they didn't have a natural childbirth?

[JesusisGod2]

Wow, thats digging isnt it?

That question is like asking what happens to a still born or a baby that dies shortly after birth, where do they go? They havent been born spiritually have they? And as far as that goes most unless catholic (infant baptism) havent even been baptised either, what happens then? Questions like this are why I choose to observe anymore rather that respond as much as I used to.

The main thing Christ is pointing at here is being born again not so much on the natural birth. He says you must be born again. He puts emphasis on the Spiritual birth as that which is important.

[Khristeeanos]

Wow, thats digging isnt it?

That question is like asking what happens to a still born or a baby that dies shortly after birth, where do they go? They havent been born spiritually have they?Questions like this are why I choose to observe anymore rather that respond as much as I  used to.

The main thing Christ is pointing at here is being born again not so much on the natural birth. He says you must be born again. He puts emphasis on the Spiritual birth as that which is important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you mean digging?

The text says "you must be born of water" and you say it is a natural childbirth. The obvious conclusion is that your intrepretation of this passage says that if one doesn't experience natural childbirth that they won't be in heaven.