Vatican: Jews can be saved without Christ

[SavedOnebyGrace]

7 hours ago, inchrist said:

The relationship between Christian to Muslims is completely different to relations of Christians to Jews. Jews and Christians have the longest religious relationship in the world.

Islam does not come out of Christianity, however Christianity came out of the Jews. We dealing with in a sense your ex girlfriend or ex boyfriend than one of a new boyfriend or girlfriend.

Reconciliation is clearly needed from the Catholic and Jewish perspective as until only a few decades ago, the Church charged the Jews for the murder of the Messiah, Christianity never charged any other religious group for this crime.

In fact the church ushered in a complete rejection of Jews and a complete rejection of offering them salvation.

in fact the relationship can be compared to Jews and Samaritans.... Jesus is a perfect example how you broke barriers first with the  Samaritan woman before Jesus could even think of preaching to her.

You need to distinguish between the Catholic Church and the Christian Church.  They are not the same.

[Guest shiloh357]

11 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

Not really. I corrected or gave additional detail.

Babylonian Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 98b is a discussion, or differing opinions concerning the Messiah. In it, Isaiah 53 is quoted

R. Johanan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name? — The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come.  The School of R. Yannai said: His name is Yinnon, for it is written, His name shall endure for ever:  e'er the sun was, his name is Yinnon.  The School of R. Haninah maintained: His name is Haninah, as it is written, Where I will not give you Haninah.  Others say: His name is Menahem the son of Hezekiah, for it is written, Because Menahem ['the comforter'], that would relieve my soul, is far The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
 

Evidently, you seem to think that defending the Jews means you have to defend Judaism.   I am a Messianic Jew and I don't know of any mainstream Messianic Jewish ministries that have ever felt a need to defend Judaism.   Judaism persecutes Jewish believers and it blasphemes Jesus.   Judaism is a false religion and no attempt on your part to whitewash Judaism has been convincing in the least.

That you would try and defend a religion that actively persecutes Jewish believers in the US and in Israel is disgraceful, particularly since you claim to be Jewish.   Judaism does not honor God.   Judaism hates our Savior and our Messiah.   It is a false religion and frankly, I remain appalled at your defense of it.

It is not anti-Semitic to criticize Judaism.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

My wife recorded an interesting piece on Jesus' family tree.  When you put it all together, it looks something like the tree shown in the following link.  The interesting thing to note is that the family of Jesus looked over the Church at Jerusalum as leaders until sometime around 149 AD, when the last Bishop of Jerusalum was martyred.  The early Christian Church was rooted in the inspired words of Jesus and looked over by Jesus' Jewish family.  Two of Jesus' half brothers, James and Jude, wrote books in the New Testament.  All this was ongoing even after the Temple in Jerusalum was destroyed in 70 AD.  Worship continued unabated by the Jewish Christians.  God had become Man and walked among us.  Praise God.

The Jesus Family Tree

[Qnts2]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

Evidently, you seem to think that defending the Jews means you have to defend Judaism.   I am a Messianic Jew and I don't know of any mainstream Messianic Jewish ministries that have ever felt a need to defend Judaism.   Judaism persecutes Jewish believers and it blasphemes Jesus.   Judaism is a false religion and no attempt on your part to whitewash Judaism has been convincing in the least.

That you would try and defend a religion that actively persecutes Jewish believers in the US and in Israel is disgraceful, particularly since you claim to be Jewish.   Judaism does not honor God.   Judaism hates our Savior and our Messiah.   It is a false religion and frankly, I remain appalled at your defense of it.

It is not anti-Semitic to criticize Judaism.

It is not anti-semitic to criticize Judaism, on that I agree. It is wrong to misrepresent Judaism, and a misrepresentation of Judaism lends to anti-semitism and does not help Jewish people to believe in Jesus. If a Jewish person who knows Judaism sees or hears a Christian or messianic Jew is misrepresenting what Jewish people believe, it sounds like that Messianic judaism  is lying. 

As far as Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus, disliking Jews who do believe in Jesus, I understand where they are coming from. Before accepting Jesus, I thought the same way. As I've said before, I thought Jewish people who believed in Jesus were traitors to the Jewish people. I thought most were claiming to be Christians to make their lives easier at the expense of the Jewish people, since I thought most Christians deep down hated Jews.

I find fault with Judaism where Judaism is at fault. But, I do not misrepresent what Judaism believes or teaches. You do. The Talmud is not viewed as having more authority then the Torah. The Talmud  for the most part, is a discussion/debate of what the Torah means, and how to practice the law. I do not believe the Mishna was given by God at Mt. Sinai, but instead contains rulings by the judges. Jewish Rabbis are sincere in studying the law in the Torah, and the commentary (Talmud) by older respected Rabbis. They might at times be sincerely wrong, and at times they are sincerely right. 

The NT tells believers in Jesus that we will be persecuted by unbelievers. The NT does not give us a right to misrepresent unbelievers. 

[Qnts2]

9 hours ago, inchrist said:

The relationship between Christian to Muslims is completely different to relations of Christians to Jews. Jews and Christians have the longest religious relationship in the world.

Islam does not come out of Christianity, however Christianity came out of the Jews. We dealing with in a sense your ex girlfriend or ex boyfriend than one of a new boyfriend or girlfriend.

Reconciliation is clearly needed from the Catholic and Jewish perspective as until only a few decades ago, the Church charged the Jews for the murder of the Messiah, Christianity never charged any other religious group for this crime.

In fact the church ushered in a complete rejection of Jews and a complete rejection of offering them salvation.

in fact the relationship can be compared to Jews and Samaritans.... Jesus is a perfect example how you broke barriers first with the  Samaritan woman before Jesus could even think of preaching to her.

No reconciliation is needed between Jewish people and true believers in Jesus, in order to share the gospel. Share the gospel, and if the Jewish person comes to believe, that causes reconciliation.

I do not see Jesus attempting reconciliation with the Samaritan women in order to tell her who He was. He was telling her Who He was to bring her to Himself.

Of course, I personally see to many serious faults within the Catholic church to really care if the Catholics share the gospel. The only problem I see with the new stance of the Catholic church is that it is just more anti-semitism.  

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, Davida said:

It's more like a genetic family member-- an older brother that is estranged--they have wondered off and need to come back into the fold.  The Catholic Church today is not the same as "the biblical Church" in the Bible. The Catholic Church doesn't speak for nor make policy for Protestant Christian Church .

Don't believe the lies that the Roman Catholic Church goes back to Jesus.  Christianity goes back to Jesus as the vine branch grafted in.  Christianity has Jewish roots, not Roman.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

11 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

It is not anti-semitic to criticize Judaism, on that I agree. It is wrong to misrepresent Judaism, and a misrepresentation of Judaism lends to anti-semitism and does not help Jewish people to believe in Jesus. If a Jewish person who knows Judaism sees or hears a Christian or messianic Jew is misrepresenting what Jewish people believe, it sounds like that Messianic judaism  is lying.

As far as Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus, disliking Jews who do believe in Jesus, I understand where they are coming from. Before accepting Jesus, I thought the same way. As I've said before, I thought Jewish people who believed in Jesus were traitors to the Jewish people. I thought most were claiming to be Christians to make their lives easier at the expense of the Jewish people, since I thought most Christians deep down hated Jews.

I find fault with Judaism where Judaism is at fault. But, I do not misrepresent what Judaism believes or teaches. You do. The Talmud is not viewed as having more authority then the Torah. The Talmud  for the most part, is a discussion/debate of what the Torah means, and how to practice the law. I do not believe the Mishna was given by God at Mt. Sinai, but instead contains rulings by the judges. Jewish Rabbis are sincere in studying the law in the Torah, and the commentary (Talmud) by older respected Rabbis. They might at times be sincerely wrong, and at times they are sincerely right.

The NT tells believers in Jesus that we will be persecuted by unbelievers. The NT does not give us a right to misrepresent unbelievers.

What you're saying here is true.  There are "Christians" who hate Jews.  There are levels as to the degree of hatred they have for Jews, and how it affects their theology or not.  As I understand you post, the Talmud is like a Rabbinical commentary on the Torah.  As Christians, some of us rely upon commentaries to help us understand the more difficult passages in the Bible.  I personally have more commentaries, both paper and electronic media, than I can count.  But I've learned to rely upon just a few over the years as sound exegesis, with the others as supplemental.  I pray and trust the Holy Spirit for guidance and discernment.  It appears the Jews are doing the same thing with the Torah, with respect to using the Talmud.

[Guest shiloh357]

2 hours ago, Qnts2 said:

It is not anti-semitic to criticize Judaism, on that I agree. It is wrong to misrepresent Judaism, and a misrepresentation of Judaism lends to anti-semitism and does not help Jewish people to believe in Jesus. If a Jewish person who knows Judaism sees or hears a Christian or messianic Jew is misrepresenting what Jewish people believe, it sounds like that Messianic judaism  is lying. 

As far as Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus, disliking Jews who do believe in Jesus, I understand where they are coming from. Before accepting Jesus, I thought the same way. As I've said before, I thought Jewish people who believed in Jesus were traitors to the Jewish people. I thought most were claiming to be Christians to make their lives easier at the expense of the Jewish people, since I thought most Christians deep down hated Jews.

I find fault with Judaism where Judaism is at fault. But, I do not misrepresent what Judaism believes or teaches. You do. The Talmud is not viewed as having more authority then the Torah. The Talmud  for the most part, is a discussion/debate of what the Torah means, and how to practice the law. I do not believe the Mishna was given by God at Mt. Sinai, but instead contains rulings by the judges. Jewish Rabbis are sincere in studying the law in the Torah, and the commentary (Talmud) by older respected Rabbis. They might at times be sincerely wrong, and at times they are sincerely right. 

The NT tells believers in Jesus that we will be persecuted by unbelievers. The NT does not give us a right to misrepresent unbelievers. 

That Judaism is a false religion that rejects Jesus is not misrepresenting Judaism.   To say that Judaism is a post biblical religion isn't misrepresenting Judaism.   To try and make Judaism an OT religion IS misrepresenting it and that is what you have done. 

Jewish unbelievers don't merely dislike believing Jews.  They accuse them of being  worse than Hitler.  Jews who convert to faith in Jesus, particularly in Israel are black-balled.  They lose their jobs and can have the marriages annulled and denies access to their children if they are married to a Jewish non-believer.   It is not a matter of simple dislike. 

Judaism blasphemes Jesus and persecutes Jewish believers.  

Yes, they do put more emphasis and authority on the Talmud than the written Torah.   The entire structure of Jewish life is based on the Talmud, not the written Torah.  The Talmud, and more specifically, the Mishnah contains the Halacha of Jewish life and practice.   You have to study the Talmud much more than the Torah itself and even then the Torah is interpreted by the Talmud and the writings of the Rabbis.  The Torah means what the Rabbis say it means.   It is the Jewish version of the RCC Magisterium.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, inchrist said:

The Catholic Church acknowledges that salvation is possible for people who, through no fault of their own, do not embrace the Christian faith in this life.

Vatican II states:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience (Lumen Gentium 16).

 

The Bible doesn't teach, that.    What they teach is a second chance at salvation, and salvation outside of Christ.  All they do is offer a perverted gospel.

[other one]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

The Catholic Church acknowledges that salvation is possible for people who, through no fault of their own, do not embrace the Christian faith in this life.

Vatican II states:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience (Lumen Gentium 16).

 

and I don't actually disagree with that......      but saying that all Jews will be saved is a different thing.