How can we say Tribulation has not started ?

[Montana Marv]

The Wrath of God comprises a portion of the Great Tribulation or the time of Great Distress.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The prophecies of Joel, Zephaniah, Isaiah, and Jeremiah all pertain to Israel: OT prophets never prophesied about the Church, of which they were told nothing. Israel of the flesh will experience the Wrath of God; the elect of the Church will not, as Paul explicitly states in 1 Thes. 5:9.

Eph. 3:3 ...by revelation He made known to me [Paul] the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel...

Jesus was speaking to his disciples of the Church in Matthew 24 about his 2nd Coming, not to unbelieving Israel. Nothing within Matt. 24:4-31 mentions the Wrath of God. You have provided no evidence other than your own word that Rev. 6:15-17 refers to the Great Tribulation. So I repeat,

"Both of you base your beliefs on the presumption that the Great Tribulation is the same thing as the Wrath of God. The unproven assumption, because no one has ever supported this teaching by actual scriptures that equate the two."

 

Hi WilliamL,

I agree with a lot of what you have said - the Body of Christ was not known by the OT prophets, however I also believe that the gospels, although we can read about Christ & His purposes for Israel it is written about Israel.

So can you help me understand what you are saying, please. It seems that you see the great tribulation happening then the wrath of God. Is that correct. Can you give specific times & details for those?

Thank you, Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So can you help me understand what you are saying, please. It seems that you see the great tribulation happening then the wrath of God. Is that correct. Can you give specific times & details for those?

Here is my last post on the "Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position," which covers the essentials of the difference and the separation between the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God:

Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib Summary

Some believers will be killed during the Great Tribulation: these are those saints of the 5th Seal "slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held." Rev. 6:9 = Matt. 24:9 : "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you...."

Then comes the 6th Seal's heavenly and earthly cataclysms = Matt. 24:29, which come "immediately after the Tribulation."

Then comes Christ in the clouds to gather up his elect = the Rapture, while being seen by every eye (Rev. 1:7), which causes all the unbelievers to mourn, and to flee and hide in fear. Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7, 6:15-17; Is. 2:10-11, 19-21

At that point, after the Rapture of the Church and during the unbelievers' fear, "the great day of His [God's] Wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). But "God did not appoint us [the elect] to [His] Wrath," 1 Thes. 5:9, so we've been taken outta here just before.

But at this same time, there is a third group, those of Israel who also see Jesus in the clouds, realize that he is their Messiah "whom they pierced," and therefore demonstrate their repentance and faith in him when they "mourn for him like one mourns for his only son." Zech. 12:10ff.

The very next event in Rev. 7:1-8, which continues on from the earthly perspective of Rev. 6, tells us of the 144,000 Israelites who are sanctified/sealed in their foreheads "on the earth." Who are these but the repentant ones of Zech. 12:10? For them, it is too late to be raptured, because they were not among "those who were ready" when the Bridegroom came. Matt. 25:10

Then John's view is shifted to heaven, and he is shown 'those who came out of the Great Tribulation' (Rev. 7:14), being those just raptured, "standing before the throne and the before the Lamb, clothed with white robes." Rev. 7:9 These fulfill the promise of Luke 21:36: "Watch, therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things [of the Great Tribulation] and to stand before the Son of Man."

Rev. 8-19 then tells us what will come upon all who were not ready:  they must go through the time of God's Wrath, which includes both the Trumpets and Bowls, during which there will be believers on earth who will be martyred by the Beast. They will arise in the Rev. 20:4 resurrection, after Christ has descended to earth (Rev. 19) and defeated the Beast and kings of the earth.

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

 

Thank you for some of the details of your view. Now for me to get a clearer understanding of this -

 

1. Can you give me any details of the Great Trib?

2. Can you give me specific times for the Great Trib. & the Wrath of God?

 

eg.  I................Gt. Trib. time? (days/mths/yrs?)........I.............Wrath time? (days/mths/yrs?).........I

 

Thank you, Marilyn.

 

 

 

 

[Ezra]

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

no one has ever supported this teaching by actual scriptures that equate the two."

How many Scriptures do you need? Study Revelation 6 to Revelation 18, and see for yourself how often the word "wrath" appears. 

[Spock]

On January 8, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Montana Marv said:

Just giving you a heads up on how to prepare.  A basketball player will shoot baskets, a baseball pitcher will try different pitches.  Now focus on what you will need to do to be ready.

In Christ

Montana Marv

William,

i really like where you are coming from here but again still, You haven't given me enough to convince me the tribulation that Matt 24  references is actually the GREAT TRIB. (First 5 seals).  Could you possibly help me understand why you see the Great TRIB in the first five seals?

By the way, two more questions:

1. how long do you see that playing out? I'm assuming 3.5 years, but let me know bro. 

2. When do you see the abomination of desolation taking place?  During the GT or during wrath?  Didn't Jesus or Daniel say in the middle?

Im listening.....thanks

spock with Vulcan ears wide open

[WilliamL]

14 hours ago, Spock said:

...You haven't given me enough to convince me the tribulation that Matt 24  references is actually the GREAT TRIB. (First 5 seals).  Could you possibly help me understand why you see the Great TRIB in the first five seals?

By the way, two more questions:

1. how long do you see that playing out? I'm assuming 3.5 years, but let me know bro. 

2. When do you see the abomination of desolation taking place?  During the GT or during wrath?  Didn't Jesus or Daniel say in the middle?

My opinion (only) about the length of the GT, which length is never specifically stated in Scripture:

On 1/8/2016 at 10:50 AM, WilliamL said:

The evidence of past great tribulations and/or testings-- the Flood of Noah, the Exodus, the spying out of Canaan, Elijah's coming to Horeb, etc.  -- indicate that the Great Tribulation would normally be expected to last 40 days; but in this special case, it won't last that long: "those days will be cut short." Matt. 24:22

There is 3.5 year period of Daniel 7's Little Horn = Rev. 13's Mouth of the Beast,' which seemingly concurs with the prophesying of the 2 Witnesses. This period takes place during "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7), and has to do with the judgment of Israel/Jacob during the Trumpets. But all this comes after the Rapture of the Church elect, which Rapture immediately follows the heavenly signs of the 6th Seal; as foretold in Matt. 24:29 : "after the [great] tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened [etc.]..."

Matt. 24:4-14 is a general overview of the events of the Great Tribulation. It has long been recognized that the “many” false christs (:5) are the the White Horse of Rev. 6's 1^st Seal; “wars and rumors of wars” (:6) are the 2^nd Seal's Red Horse; “famines” (:7) are the 3^rd Seal's Black Horse; “pestilence and earthquakes” (:7) are the 4^th Seal's Pale Horse; and the hatred and murder of the saints, instigated by false prophets (:9-12), is the martyrdom foretold by the 5^th Seal.

Beginning in Mathew 24:15, Jesus shifts to a different topic-with-sequence: how the Gr. Trib. will begin (:15), how the saints should respond (:16-26), how the Gr. Trib. will end (:27-29), and how Christ will return (:30-31).

When Jesus speaks in Matt. 24:23-24 of “false christs and false prophets” appearing, he is speaking of the same ones earlier mentioned in verses 5 and 11: he thereby ties his two narratives together into a greater whole. Thus Jesus first focuses only upon the Gr. Trib. (= the birth-pangs); then second, describes the main pre-trib (Abom. of Des.), mid-trib (deception), and post-trib (Second Coming) events.

(Please don't confuse these terms of pre-/mid-/post-trib with how they are used by others.)

As you should be able to see, the 6th Seal/pre-wrath/post-trib position suggests a short trib, likely far shorter than any standard mid- or post-trib. view. The whole GT takes place during the time the bridesmaids "go out to meet the Bridegroom." Matt. 25:1 Which the Exodus era directly foreshadowed, when the Israelites went out to meet with YHWH in the wilderness at Mount Sinai.

[WilliamL]

16 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

1. Can you give me any details of the Great Trib?

2. Can you give me specific times for the Great Trib. & the Wrath of God?

eg.  I................Gt. Trib. time? (days/mths/yrs?)........I.............Wrath time? (days/mths/yrs?).........I

Much of this is answered above. As far as the period for the Wrath of God, it is divided into two parts:

1) The Judgment of Israel during the Trumpets, at the end of which (7th Seal) the Kingdom of Heaven is reestablished upon earth. Rev. 11:15  In the Exodus-era foreshadow/type, this corresponds with when Korah and the other rebellious Israelites were judged and condemned, and then Aaron's rod budded, thereby establishing God's earthly rulership authority over his people Israel.

2) The Judgment of the nations during the Bowls, "for in them the Wrath of God is completed." Rev. 15:1  Like during the Exodus era, this I strongly believe will only come after a full 40 years. And it will conclude just like the Exodus era did, with the LORD going forth to war against the nations who have assembled themselves together against God's earthly chosen people. Joshua 10 = Rev. 19.

This 40-year period will commence with the great earth changes which will take place during the 6th Seal, "when every mountain and island [is] moved out of its place." Rev. 6:14  That event, which I believe will be caused by a pole reversal, will change the course of the Nile River, causing Egypt to become desolate:

Ezek. 29:10 ...I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. 11 No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. 12 And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

Thank you the details. Now have you considered these points in relation to this view?

 

I.........(1. Gt. Trib)......................I.........(2. Trumpets)............I..(3.Wrath)..I...

........greatest trouble.........................lesser trouble......................................

 

1.The Great Tribulation. We know that Jesus said, “...there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

So why does the Body of Christ go through the great tribulation, the greatest trouble?

If we go through the greatest trouble then the lesser troubles would not seem as difficult.

 

 

2.The Trumpet Judgments – which you say are for Israel & for 40 years.

 

1/3 of trees, grass – famine.

1/3 of sea, blood, creatures die, ships destroyed – more food shortages & death.

1/3 of rivers, springs, bitter – people die, thirst, water shortages.

1/3 of sun, moon & stars, darkened – limiting growth of plants, creatures.

Demons released to torment mankind without seal.

Great army released to kill 1/3 of mankind.

 

`But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands.....their murders...sorceries....sexual immorality...thefts.` (Rev. 9: 20 & 21)

 

This clearly shows that all mankind will be affected & the reason for the judgments. It is quite obvious that mankind would not last 40 years of such horrific judgments. I think you need to assess your timeline.

 

 

3.Wrath of God – which you say is for the nations, after the 40 years.

 

Sores upon those who took the mark – pain, suffering, torment.

The sea becomes blood – food shortages, no precipitation for rain.

River, springs become blood – thirst, no drinking water.

Great heat – scorching, pain, can`t work outside.

Darkness over the earth – great pain,

Gathering of the armies to Armageddon – demonic.

 

All these judgments would take a while to outwork. So where is Israel amid this time? Isn`t this the time you said was their `kingdom of heaven re-established on earth?`

And where are `God`s earthly chosen people` (as you said) during this time? And who are they?

 

 

There is always a point I believe that leads us off into error. I believe that your point was believing that there was an `Exodus-era foreshadow/type.` Now God`s word tells us  -

 

`Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they (Israel) also lusted.....do not become idolaters....nor let us commit sexual immorality, ..nor let us tempt Christ...nor murmer....now all these things happened to them as example, & they were written for our admonition,...therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man...`` (1 Cor. 10: 5 – 13)

 

Israel`s examples are to do with behaviour William, not that their events foreshadow our future. There is no scriptural basis for that.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

[WilliamL]

57 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

57 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Thank you the details. Now have you considered these points in relation to this view? ...

 

1.The Great Tribulation. We know that Jesus said, “...there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

So why does the Body of Christ go through the great tribulation, the greatest trouble?

If we go through the greatest trouble then the lesser troubles would not seem as difficult.

Why shouldn't God's people be able to withstand the fiery test, if they live in Him by His Spirit? 

1 Cor. 3:13 [E]ach one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

"The Day" is the Day of the Lord. Should I believe Paul, or you?

 

2.The Trumpet Judgments – which you say are for Israel & for 40 years.

 

I did not say for 40 years, I said 3.5 years until the 7th Trumpets' reestablishment of the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth once more. Read both posts.

 

3.Wrath of God – which you say is for the nations, after the 40 years. ...

 

All these judgments would take a while to outwork. So where is Israel amid this time? Isn`t this the time you said was their `kingdom of heaven re-established on earth?`

And where are `God`s earthly chosen people` (as you said) during this time? And who are they?

Israel is upon the earth throughout the End Times and the Millennium.

Jesus said during his First Coming that the Kingdom of God had come. (Matt. 12:28, etc.) But that did not mean that a magic wand had presto! changed the world. Likewise in the End Times: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."  But there will still be rebellion against it, just like there was at the First Coming.

 

There is always a point I believe that leads us off into error. I believe that your point was believing that there was an `Exodus-era foreshadow/type.` ..

Israel`s examples are to do with behaviour William, not that their events foreshadow our future. There is no scriptural basis for that.

False. Read Hebrews 12:18-28, where Paul makes the direct comparison between the Exodus and the End Times. Similarly in Galatians 4:21-31. There is great truth in the old saying that "the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."