what does "growth" look like for a believer?

[thereselittleflower]

15 hours ago, rjp34652 said:

Consider the lillies of the field.  Not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these.
It is all God's doing. None of them spent a second of time examining themselves...............
 
Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations.  Looking inward is a trap of the devil.  All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection.  The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ.  Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons.

The American church has come to embrace all things secular.  Differences between churches and secular organizations are virtually indistinguishable.  This is true concerning the buzz word "GROWTH".  Christians are called to be separate from the world, not to embrace its buzz words or to participate in its conceit. 

The word GROWTH is not used today as a reference to sanctification (why not use THAT word?).  Instead GROWTH is employed in the context of self-improvement.  It means the same in church as it does in the corporate world. Growth methods and procedures are employed by large secular organizations to encourage individuals to assume a standard of acceptable behavior.  It's a cookie-cutter education in propaganda and a doctrine of self-importance within the context of the corporate whole.  Procedures are interchangeable and can just as easily be used to promote Islam or the administration of General Motors, Inc.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Biblical spiritual principle of the sanctification of the believer in Christ. 

One can quote scripture all day long and all that will be accomplished will be a reiteration of spiritual truth.  It's a devilish smokescreen to hide what's really happening in churches.  What IS being promoted is 'growth ministry' - a financial trap that church administrators use to squeeze money out of their congregations (who already pay too much for everything else).   

The current sales pitch for "growth ministries" insists that individual Christians participate in lectures, classes and activities designed for self-improvement.  In northern California, Presbyterian churches are charging fees for 'Bible studies'.  In north Georgia, Methodist churches are doing the same thing.  These churches CHARGE TUITION FEES as well as textbook fees for their bogus courses.  

---> The courses themselves are not accredited, thus they are entirely worthless in terms of legitimate academic credentials. <--- (1)

In other words, snake oil.

However they DO benefit the church bank account.  I've been there.  I've seen it.   Don't tell me it isn't happening.  It's a money making fraud perpetrated by religious administrators who seek support for their crumbling institutions.

Who do tuition and textbook fees benefit?  They benefit the church bank account and they benefit religious publishers.  It doesn't do squat for the poor soul who think's he's getting something for his time and money.  He isn't.

In most cases the material is reiterated grade school or middle school level dogma/propaganda.   I know.  I've seen it.  So has the reader if truth be told.  There is a common familiarity to all of it.  Spiritual milk instead of meat.  Buzz words are employed liberally to reinforce corporate ideals, not to encourage Christians in seeking truth.
  
My formal studies in theology and church history reached the Masters Degree level at a noted seminary in New York.  I am currently employed by a local State College and am familiar with legitimate educational materials and programs.  I know the subject matter.  I have written and seen published several books, magazine articles and short stories.  I know the publishing business from personal experience.  It's all about money.  It always has been and always will be.  The church has corrupted itself and GROWTH MINISTRY is but one symptom.

My purpose is to refocus the reader's attention to the very real work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer - sanctification.  While quotations of scripture, with enhancement of the word 'growth', are not untrue - neither are they accurate in the modern church.  The church in many cases is spiritually dead and GROWTH MINISTRY is evidence of it.

GROWTH is a money matter in the secular world as well as the American church.  If properly managed, the god rackett is a good business.  I was taught that principle in seminary.(2)  

If you believe that money doesn't influence Christian education or that modern GROWTH MINISTRY, like the gnostic heresy that preceeded it(3), isn't a con job - then you are sadly misinformed.

Devotion to Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer cannot be packaged like cheap soap from China.

Does a rose go to school to learn how to be beautiful?   Does anyone presume to know how God creates such beauty?   

Beware the snake oil salesman who trades hard earned cash for GROWTH.  Only the Holy Spirit can supply the real thing.  He does it freely. 

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  

(1) Educational accreditation... 
is a type of quality assurance process under which services and operations of educational institutions or programs are evaluated by an external body to determine if applicable standards are met. If standards are met, accredited status is granted by the appropriate agency.

In most countries the function of educational accreditation is conducted by a government organization, such as a Ministry of Education. In the United States a quality assurance process exists that is independent of government and performed by private non-profit organizations.  The U.S. accreditation process was developed in the late 19th century and early 20th century after educational institutions perceived a need for improved coordination and articulation between secondary and post-secondary educational institutions, along with standardization of requirements between the two levels.
- Wikipedia

There is NO accreditation process or procedure among Christian churches in America.  Therefore there is no quality assurance in terms of doctrine or adherence to scripture in any of them.
I am employed by a local State College that participates diligently in the accreditation process.  I know my subject matter.  
- Choir Loft

(2) The instutution was a merger of Episcopal, Methodist and Baptist leadership.

(3) Secret language, special 'education' and priviledged membership are aspects of the gnostic heresy.

Honestly, this shocks me:

• Quote

  Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations.  Looking inward is a trap of the devil.  All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection.  The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ.  Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons.

   

self-examination is of the devil?

 

• 2 Corinthians 13:5

  ⁵ Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

• Lamentations 3:40 Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

 

• Haggai 1:5,7 Now therefore thus said the LORD of hosts; Consider your ways

 

• 1 Corinthians 11 27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly
• 31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

 

 

Everything said above is at least prefaced, if not built, on the claim that self examination is a trap of the devil and so to be avoided for our continued sanctification.  Yet the scripture opposes your claims about self examination.  For all ones claims of studied practice and achievements, the theology above is very much contradictory to God's word.     

It is right to speak out against gnosticism, yet even in so doing, it is possible to have succumbed to some variant (of which there are many) of gnosticism oneself.

•  Gnosticism is a set of experiences, and a belief system, that purports to provide certainty in a world of insecurity and uncertainty. The Gnostic cannot tolerate not knowing, or deal well with his or her own ignorance.  (And note: an essential ignorance is in truth at the core of every human being, for human existence is essentially mysterious.) Rather than pursue knowledge or insight through study and research, the Gnostic takes a short-cut to “knowledge” (gnosis) through non-rational means. The Gnostic is not open to reasoning, questioning, self-examination, challenging study  
• There seems to be no end to the diverse forms Gnosticism takes. Indeed, one of the symbols of the ancient Gnostics was the many-headed hydra, with the claim that this “truth,” this “certain knowledge” (gnosis) lives and thrives in many forms.
• First, however, a distinction needs to be made between the “knowers” who develop these systems of philosophy or religion, and many of their unquestioning adherents. It is empirically obvious that at least some Marxists, or some Hegelians or Progressives, or some Mormons or Christian Scientists are not essentially Gnostic, because they do not share the fundamental Gnostic experience evident in the original “thinker” or spiritualist. One can be immersed in Gnostic beliefs without being fully Gnostic. It is not the beliefs or words that make a Gnostic, but the state of the person’s soul or mind.   For the essence of this phenomenon is not found on the level of beliefs or practices, but in the fundamental experience of reality. 
• The Gnostic is one who has closed himself or herself off to reasoning, to the rational exploration of reality through study and research, because he or she “knows” the truth, making any genuine dialogue or discussion impossible. 
• A Gnostic creates an intellectual straight-jacket, a verbal maze, from which one cannot get free unless one chooses to reject the system, stand outside of it, and examine its claims by reason. 
• In truth it is usually unpleasant to examine Gnostic beliefs and experiences, because they are extremist, self-assured, and in themselves not worthy of close intellectual examination.

And as gotquestions, a popular source here at the forums, says:

• Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, emotional approach to truth
• http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html

To me, this sounds very much like the rose example:

• Quote

  "Does a rose go to school to learn how to be beautiful?" 

   

The implication is somehow we, llike the rose, don't need education or examination, we have some inner secret knowledge that's intuitive, mystical.

The failure to engage in self examination can actually lead to embracing gnostic beliefs - while some gnostics were asceticists, others were hedonists:

• some Gnostics went to the other extreme—practicing hedonism—believing that what they did with their bodies did not make any difference since only spirit mattered.
• http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/887/Hedonism.htm

 

While I agree there is a genuine problem with turning the gospel of Christ into a money making scheme, promoting self awareness and self improvement rather than true spiritual growth, this limiting "growth" in christian meaning to "self improvement"  artificially limits the use of the word, doing away its historical christian, spiritual context.  When we speak of spiritual growth, we are not speaking of "self improvement."  Refusing the necessity of self examination opens us up to all sorts of errors, especially those of gnosticism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rjp34652]

On January 19, 2016 at 9:29 AM, post said:

in that case then, isn't every scripture i put encouraging spiritual "growth" rather than physical-- contrary to your previous post? 

Peter & Paul didn't seem to have the same problem with the word that you do -- that's all i meant to point out. unless you mean that they "cause confusion" by what they wrote.

do you think that once we believe, that's it? there is no "maturity" or "completeness" to push forward to? does the work begun in us not continue? are you perfect in this moment, with no room or reason for improvement in any area? 
i'm not trying to sell books here, just encouraging us not to be stagnant or complacent when we examine ourselves in the faith. 

Consider the lillies of the field.  Not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these.
It is all God's doing. None of them spent a second of time examining themselves...............
 
Self-examination is a major principle in Communist philosophy as well as multi-national corporations.  Looking inward is a trap of the devil.  All you'll find when you gaze at yourself is an imperfect reflection.  The Bible encourages the Christain to follow Christ.  Anything else is mirrors and smoke - doctrines of demons.

The American church has come to embrace all things secular.  Differences between churches and secular organizations are virtually indistinguishable.  This is true concerning the buzz word "GROWTH".  Christians are called to be separate from the world, not to embrace its buzz words or to participate in its conceit. 

The word GROWTH is not used today as a reference to sanctification (why not use THAT word?).  Instead GROWTH is employed in the context of self-improvement.  It means the same in church as it does in the corporate world. Growth methods and procedures are employed by large secular organizations to encourage individuals to assume a standard of acceptable behavior.  It's a cookie-cutter education in propaganda and a doctrine of self-importance within the context of the corporate whole.  Procedures are interchangeable and can just as easily be used to promote Islam or the administration of General Motors, Inc.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with the Biblical spiritual principle of the sanctification of the believer in Christ. 

One can quote scripture all day long and all that will be accomplished will be a reiteration of spiritual truth.  It's a devilish smokescreen to hide what's really happening in churches.  What IS being promoted is 'growth ministry' - a financial trap that church administrators use to squeeze money out of their congregations (who already pay too much for everything else).   

The current sales pitch for "growth ministries" insists that individual Christians participate in lectures, classes and activities designed for self-improvement.  In northern California, Presbyterian churches are charging fees for 'Bible studies'.  In north Georgia, Methodist churches are doing the same thing.  These churches CHARGE TUITION FEES as well as textbook fees for their bogus courses.  

---> The courses themselves are not accredited, thus they are entirely worthless in terms of legitimate academic credentials. <--- (1)

In other words, snake oil.

However they DO benefit the church bank account.  I've been there.  I've seen it.   Don't tell me it isn't happening.  It's a money making fraud perpetrated by religious administrators who seek support for their crumbling institutions.

Who do tuition and textbook fees benefit?  They benefit the church bank account and they benefit religious publishers.  It doesn't do squat for the poor soul who think's he's getting something for his time and money.  He isn't.

In most cases the material is reiterated grade school or middle school level dogma/propaganda.   I know.  I've seen it.  So has the reader if truth be told.  There is a common familiarity to all of it.  Spiritual milk instead of meat.  Buzz words are employed liberally to reinforce corporate ideals, not to encourage Christians in seeking truth.
  
My formal studies in theology and church history reached the Masters Degree level at a noted seminary in New York.  I am currently employed by a local State College and am familiar with legitimate educational materials and programs.  I know the subject matter.  I have written and seen published several books, magazine articles and short stories.  I know the publishing business from personal experience.  It's all about money.  It always has been and always will be.  The church has corrupted itself and GROWTH MINISTRY is but one symptom.

My purpose is to refocus the reader's attention to the very real work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer - sanctification.  While quotations of scripture, with enhancement of the word 'growth', are not untrue - neither are they accurate in the modern church.  The church in many cases is spiritually dead and GROWTH MINISTRY is evidence of it.

GROWTH is a money matter in the secular world as well as the American church.  If properly managed, the god rackett is a good business.  I was taught that principle in seminary.(2)  

If you believe that money doesn't influence Christian education or that modern GROWTH MINISTRY, like the gnostic heresy that preceeded it(3), isn't a con job - then you are sadly misinformed.

Devotion to Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer cannot be packaged like cheap soap from China.

Does a rose go to school to learn how to be beautiful?   Does anyone presume to know how God creates such beauty?   

Beware the snake oil salesman who trades hard earned cash for GROWTH.  Only the Holy Spirit can supply the real thing.  He does it freely. 

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....  

(1) Educational accreditation... 
is a type of quality assurance process under which services and operations of educational institutions or programs are evaluated by an external body to determine if applicable standards are met. If standards are met, accredited status is granted by the appropriate agency.

In most countries the function of educational accreditation is conducted by a government organization, such as a Ministry of Education. In the United States a quality assurance process exists that is independent of government and performed by private non-profit organizations.  The U.S. accreditation process was developed in the late 19th century and early 20th century after educational institutions perceived a need for improved coordination and articulation between secondary and post-secondary educational institutions, along with standardization of requirements between the two levels.
- Wikipedia

There is NO accreditation process or procedure among Christian churches in America.  Therefore there is no quality assurance in terms of doctrine or adherence to scripture in any of them.
I am employed by a local State College that participates diligently in the accreditation process.  I know my subject matter.  
- Choir Loft

(2) The instutution was a merger of Episcopal, Methodist and Baptist leadership.

(3) Secret language, special 'education' and priviledged membership are aspects of the gnostic heresy.

[thereselittleflower]

Repeating your long post which has already been examined isn't helping.

 

[rjp34652]

Shocked by my posts?

The knee-jerk response to what I wrote is indicative of a lack of consideration for the tone of the posts.   It was read, but only on a superficial level.

Shocked?   

When I am making a Biblical presentation regarding the strict interpretation of a scriptural text, I adhere to the words like flies on flypaper.

When I am making an assertion about a CON JOB being sold to church leadership in the guise of Biblical study, then I play fast and loose with the Bible.  Why not?  They do.

------

My intent was as a warning concerning two aspects of the secularization of the modern church.  If you don't know this is going on I fear you live in a dark corner somewhere.  You need to get out more.

1. That the church is increasingly IN THE NAME OF GOD and using scripture as justification - compromising it's position in terms of God's honest truth.  Case in point is same sex marriage.  Case in point is acceptance of the gay life style as holy and just and right before God.  Case in point is the unjust national policy of military intrusion invasion and wholesale destruction of nations that had no original intent of harm toward us.  Case in point is the massive genocidal murder of innocent unborn babies for no reason except convenience.  Case in point - goes on and on.  These are but a few.  My point is that the church either endorses these ungodly actions or in many cases encourages and embraces them.   It is not of God, but it is evidence of secularization in the church.

2. That the church is increasingly robbing its congregations by means of fraudulent devices.  Case in point in my posts is unaccredited Bible classes which charge tuition and book fees for SUBSTANDARD teaching materials.   Every city has legitimate accredited theological places of study.  Why are these resources not employed to educate and encourage church members?  They are not because legitimate education costs real money - money that can more easily be siphoned off into accounts for the support of a financially strapped corporate church.  

There are two ways to raise money for a church.  

One way is to beg plead and petition membership for greater and greater donations.  These include all sorts of con games such as gambling (bingo), craft fairs, church suppers, game nights, etc.  They raise money beneath the guise of fellowship and needed money.  The money wouldn't be needed if it was spent wisely in the first place.   Statistics reveal that nearly every church in America is deeply in debt for millions.

The second way to raise money is to implement a successful evangelistic program.  More members means more money.  Since most churches feel this is like taking a bath in dirty water they don't even try any more.  Many take a fatalistic approach, 'if God wants them to come we will welcome them - maybe.'  The Bible says it ought to be done, but despite rigorous adherence to Biblical principles in many other areas - THIS ONE is ignored to a fault.  Many church organizations have abandoned live evangelism.  They now believe that the Word of God can be transmitted over the internet just as well.  BUT THERE ARE NO REAL NUMBERS TO SUPPORT THIS ATTITUDE.

Bottom line to my present rant is that con artists have invaded the church.  In terms of my theme the buzz word GROWTH is a hook to buy into their schemes.

If you aren't aware of these things and if you don't believe me, then I encourage you to educate yourself in this very real danger to the body of Christ.  Get out more and stop throwing manure in the face of the messenger.   If you knew what I was talking about you wouldn't do it.   That you do proves your blindness and laziness.

and that's me, hollering in the choir loft......    

 

[thereselittleflower]

1 minute ago, rjp34652 said:

Shocked by my posts?

The knee-jerk response to what I wrote is indicative of a lack of consideration for the tone of the posts.   It was read, but only on a superficial level.

Shocked?   

When I am making a Biblical presentation regarding the strict interpretation of a scriptural text, I adhere to the words like flies on flypaper.

When I am making an assertion about a CON JOB being sold to church leadership in the guise of Biblical study, then I play fast and loose with the Bible.  Why not?  They do.

------

My intent was as a warning concerning two aspects of the secularization of the modern church.  If you don't know this is going on I fear you live in a dark corner somewhere.  You need to get out more.

1. That the church is increasingly IN THE NAME OF GOD and using scripture as justification - compromising it's position in terms of God's honest truth.  Case in point is same sex marriage.  Case in point is acceptance of the gay life style as holy and just and right before God.  Case in point is the unjust national policy of military intrusion invasion and wholesale destruction of nations that had no original intent of harm toward us.  Case in point is the massive genocidal murder of innocent unborn babies for no reason except convenience.  Case in point - goes on and on.  These are but a few.  My point is that the church either endorses these ungodly actions or in many cases encourages and embraces them.   It is not of God, but it is evidence of secularization in the church.

2. That the church is increasingly robbing its congregations by means of fraudulent devices.  Case in point in my posts is unaccredited Bible classes which charge tuition and book fees for SUBSTANDARD teaching materials.   Every city has legitimate accredited theological places of study.  Why are these resources not employed to educate and encourage church members?  They are not because legitimate education costs real money - money that can more easily be siphoned off into accounts for the support of a financially strapped corporate church.  

There are two ways to raise money for a church.  

One way is to beg plead and petition membership for greater and greater donations.  These include all sorts of con games such as gambling (bingo), craft fairs, church suppers, game nights, etc.  They raise money beneath the guise of fellowship and needed money.  The money wouldn't be needed if it was spent wisely in the first place.   Statistics reveal that nearly every church in America is deeply in debt for millions.

The second way to raise money is to implement a successful evangelistic program.  More members means more money.  Since most churches feel this is like taking a bath in dirty water they don't even try any more.  Many take a fatalistic approach, 'if God wants them to come we will welcome them - maybe.'  The Bible says it ought to be done, but despite rigorous adherence to Biblical principles in many other areas - THIS ONE is ignored to a fault.  Many church organizations have abandoned live evangelism.  They now believe that the Word of God can be transmitted over the internet just as well.  BUT THERE ARE NO REAL NUMBERS TO SUPPORT THIS ATTITUDE.

Bottom line to my present rant is that con artists have invaded the church.  In terms of my theme the buzz word GROWTH is a hook to buy into their schemes.

If you aren't aware of these things and if you don't believe me, then I encourage you to educate yourself in this very real danger to the body of Christ.  Get out more and stop throwing manure in the face of the messenger.   If you knew what I was talking about you wouldn't do it.   That you do proves your blindness.

and that's me, hollering in the choir loft......    

 

No, it was not a "knee jerk" response.

It was a considered and thought out response.

Calling it a knee-jerk response is simply an attempt to dismiss it as irrelevant.  But contrary to that hope,  my response is very relevant.   I am afraid for you that you have succumbed to one of the many varied forms of gnosticism, and your presentation was not biblical as I already explained.  

And while I agree con artists have invaded the church at large and the points you have made are very valid, these facts do not make what else you had to say on issues of doctrine biblical.

 

 

[rjp34652]

22 minutes ago, thereselittleflower said:

No, it was not a "knee jerk" response.

It was a considered and thought out response.

Calling it a knee-jerk response is simply an attempt to dismiss it as irrelevant.  But contrary to that hope,  my response is very relevant.   I am afraid for you that you have succumbed to one of the many varied forms of gnosticism, and your presentation was not biblical as I already explained.  

And while I agree con artists have invaded the church at large and the points you have made are very valid, these facts do not make what else you had to say on issues of doctrine biblical.

 

 

It wasn't thought out at all.    Knee jerk is an auto-response.  It is inconsiderate of the material submitted in the post.

I note the extreme reaction to my words.   None of them are in dispute, by the way.  Not one.   My purpose was to illuminate a deep dark problem in the church.

And I do dismiss the inconsiderate responses to my post as irrelevant and ignorant of the issues at hand.   

I've gone to great lengths to explain the danger as well as my purpose and design in doing so.

The problem is refusal to acknowledge my methods and the truth of what I wrote in terms of secularization. 

Apparently none of the respondents have had to deal with the problem.

Stupidity and laziness are not virtues.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS    I note that aspersions upon my character have been made in response to my posts, which the administrators have conveniently ignored.   When a man's devotion to Christ is called into question THAT is a major undeserved attack upon him and is forbidden in the Bible.   Apparently respondents as well as administrators ignore this point choosing instead to dwell on dead issues and illusive points of interpretation.  It seems to be ok to insult a man as long as you use scripture to do it.  

This is hypocrisy of the meanest sort.   Understanding of what I wrote is being deliberately twisted denied and ignored.   So be it.  Live in your dying church for whatever good you think it does you.   Warning has been posted.  Go your own way if you think it good.  You will wind up in the ditch, but it won't be my fault.

[thereselittleflower]

5 hours ago, rjp34652 said:

It wasn't thought out at all.    Knee jerk is an auto-response.  It is inconsiderate of the material submitted in the post.

I note the extreme reaction to my words.   None of them are in dispute, by the way.  Not one.   My purpose was to illuminate a deep dark problem in the church.

And I do dismiss the inconsiderate responses to my post as irrelevant and ignorant of the issues at hand.   

I've gone to great lengths to explain the danger as well as my purpose and design in doing so.

The problem is refusal to acknowledge my methods and the truth of what I wrote in terms of secularization. 

Apparently none of the respondents have had to deal with the problem.

Stupidity and laziness are not virtues.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS    I note that aspersions upon my character have been made in response to my posts, which the administrators have conveniently ignored.   When a man's devotion to Christ is called into question THAT is a major undeserved attack upon him and is forbidden in the Bible.   Apparently respondents as well as administrators ignore this point choosing instead to dwell on dead issues and illusive points of interpretation.  It seems to be ok to insult a man as long as you use scripture to do it.  

This is hypocrisy of the meanest sort.   Understanding of what I wrote is being deliberately twisted denied and ignored.   So be it.  Live in your dying church for whatever good you think it does you.   Warning has been posted.  Go your own way if you think it good.  You will wind up in the ditch, but it won't be my fault.

All I can do is point out where you have contradicted the word of God.   If you believe that self examination is of the devil, and refuse to hear otherwise, then I will pray for  you.