Daniel 8

[Dave Watchman]

On 3/3/2016 at 5:56 AM, Kan said:

From 457 BC to the appearing of the Messiah (27 AD) is 483 years, (69 weeks of years) then there is one more week of years until the time of the Gentiles (34 AD), or the end for the Jews to welcome the Messiah.

That makes a total of 490 years or 70 weeks of years. In the middle of that last week of years, Christ is crucified - 31 AD, He makes an end of the sacrificial system.

From 457 BC to the end of the 2300 days (of years) brings us to 1844 AD.

 

On 3/3/2016 at 5:56 AM, Kan said:

Daniel 8 can be better understood with a knowledge of what the sanctuary in heaven means. This is what first troubled Daniel, because he was relating to the temple on earth- the house of God in Jerusalem, but the angel directed his attention to a much bigger picture, talked about extensively by Paul in Hebrews etc.

This service of Christ for the world, would begin after His ascension, and continue almost to the end of time. It is a very great theme, which is God's answer to the great abominations carried out by Satan, through political and religious powers, throughout the ages.

The great tribulation is the 1260 years of the Papacy hunting, oppressing and persecuting the saints until death. It coincides with all the other prophecies of world kingdoms.

Those who look for a future Antichrist without recognizing it in the past and present will be deceived by it, just like some people think the promised Messiah has not come and is yet future. 

Hi Kan, Peaceful Sabbath

I wonder what you mean by "This service of Christ for the world"? I think that it had to start in the garden on the very day that Adam sinned.

I can tell that you've done a lot of good work on this, I guess we all have. So I hesitate to say anything that will agitate you or another brother or sister here. The common ground that you and I agree on, which I've quoted above, puts us much further into Daniel's and Revelation's time line than the standard view can tolerate. If I were to line up all 18 of the prophetic time periods in these two books it would seem that we're about 2/3s of the way though the Book of Revelation. And this might put us at a precarious point in an intermission between two great periods of Christian persecution.

It would appear that where we get the translation of prophetic time comes from the architecture of the Jubilee calendar where a week or heptad of years cause a day to equal a year. In addition to this the 70 weeks and 2300 days are in fact 490 and 2300 years because they won't work any other way. This was something that became self evident even to the scholars of the 1800's. But the mistake that they made was to take this calculation too far and translate all prophetic time.

Because there's another fact that becomes self evident which is that all prophetic time does not require translation. The 1260 days of Revelation 11, the 42 months of Revelation 13 and the thousand years of Revelation 20 are examples of prophetic times that just won't work if we try to translate them. Our end time tribulation just can't be 1260 years long. So sometime after 1844 the Jubilee calendar and hence the translation of prophetic time had to come to a logical conclusion.

The best answer that I've been able to find so far is that any prophetic time period that seems to occur after 1994 should remain as literal time. Any prophecy that takes place prior to 1994 is in Jubilee time and needs to be translated a day for a year. So this might mean that sometimes a time, times and half a time is 1260 years, and at other times, a time, times and half a time is also 1260 literal days. So if the 3 prophetic time periods from Daniel 12 are due for our appointed time of the end, they remain in real time.

This list of the 18 prophetic time periods was compiled by my friend Larry W.

1. Time, times and half a time (saints persecuted – Daniel 7:25)

2. 2,300 evenings and mornings (until temple restored – Daniel 8:14)

3. 70 weeks (determined upon the Jews, Messiah crucified – Daniel 9:24,25)

4. Time, times and half a time (when completed, power of the holy people broken – Daniel 12:7)

5. 1,290 days (from the end of the daily to the setting up of the abomination – Daniel 12:11)

6. 1,335 days (blessed is the one who waits for and reaches this day – Daniel 12:12)

7. Half hour of silence (at the opening of the 7th seal – Revelation 8:1)

8. 5 months (length of torture upon those not having the seal of God – Revelation 9:5)

9. Hour, day, month and year (punctiliar event when war begins – Revelation 9:15)

10. 42 months (Gentiles trample holy city – Revelation 11:2)

11. 1,260 days (Two Witnesses empowered for this length of time – Revelation 11:3)

12. 3.5 days (bodies of Two Witnesses lie in the street – Revelation 11:11)

13. 1,260 days (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:6)

14. Time, times and half a time (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:14)

15. 42 months ( beast was allowed to exercise authority – Revelation 13:5)

16. One hour (ten kings join with beast – Revelation 17:12)

17. One day, one hour (Babylon’s destruction begins – Revelation 18:8,19)

18. 1,000 years (Satan in the abyss – Revelation 20:2)

God measures apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994) determines how prophetic timing is determined.

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Dave Watchman
I can never get it right the first time

[Spock]

Greetings all,

after a few weeks of intensive bible study, I have now come to this conclusion- I probably was wrong in everything I have said on this thread.  I hate saying that, but I'm not arrogant enough to think I know it all and cannot learn new things.

i now believe Daniel 8 shows the little horn arising from the 4 horns (generals) and this little horn is exclusively Antiochus Ephinanes and not the future antichrist. To be clear here, I do not believe this little horn that arises in Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn that arises from Daniel 7.  That little horn arises from the 4th empire which was not Greece, but rather Rome. That little horn will be the future antichrist and is further embellished in Rev 13 (but this is another matter). 

Anyhow, I've gone ahead of myself here. Sorry. Again, I apologize for speaking hastily and probably confusing some here on this thread. I'm not surprised- I'm often confused myself trying to sort all these players out. 

Spock ducking out

[SINNERSAVED]

4 minutes ago, Spock said:

Greetings all,

after a few weeks of intensive bible study, I have now come to this conclusion- I probably was wrong in everything I have said on this thread.  I hate saying that, but I'm not arrogant enough to think I know it all and cannot learn new things.

i now believe Daniel 8 shows the little horn arising from the 4 horns (generals) and this little horn is exclusively Antiochus Ephinanes and not the future antichrist. To be clear here, I do not believe this little horn that arises in Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn that arises from Daniel 7.  That little horn arises from the 4th empire which was not Greece, but rather Rome. That little horn will be the future antichrist and is further embellished in Rev 13 (but this is another matter). 

Anyhow, I've gone ahead of myself here. Sorry. Again, I apologize for speaking hastily and probably confusing some here on this thread. I'm not surprised- I'm often confused myself trying to sort all these players out. 

Spock ducking out

Spock, it takes a great person to admit to this, but we don't hold anything against you, so keep the fire going brother, and keep the spirt flowing blessing my broither

[Spock]

8 hours ago, SINNERSAVED said:

Spock, it takes a great person to admit to this, but we don't hold anything against you, so keep the fire going brother, and keep the spirt flowing blessing my broither

Glad to have you back brother. Please try to stay calm and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting, not your flesh. 

[Dave Watchman]

Don't worry Spock, Daniel is hard to figure out. It was sealed up until the time of the end because it was not for them to know the times and seasons set in place by the Father. It wouldn't have done them any good to know anyway, they might have been crushed if they understood Jesus would not return for 2000 years. But look where we are now with people running to and fro and knowledge has been increased. And like the wise man said:"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."

9 hours ago, Spock said:

To be clear here, I do not believe this little horn that arises in Daniel 8 is the same as the little horn that arises from Daniel 7.

And you would be 100% correct in saying this. Theses two different little horns have different origins and occupy different time zones. Although you might have the two of them reversed, I find it interesting that when our second beast rises from the earth in Revelation 13 he has two horns. Could these be the two different horns from Daniel 7 and 8.

Some translations use the word "kingdom" and that can make me think of a specific country or nation. But also consider this to be the entire group of world wide evil or transgressing individuals. If an individual takes the "mark" that means he's part of the kingdom of the Antichrist no matter where he lives on earth. There really is just two kinds of people in the world that make up two different groups or kingdoms, the sheep and the goats. The goats are the bad guys that "rebel" or "fall away" from God's rule and at some point will "reach their limit" and "become completely wicked".

This is a hard thing to notice because it spans a long period of time. Back when Ward Cleaver was alive, pornography, abortion and same sex marriage were illegal in many jurisdictions. As time went on many of these things have been mandated as the correct behaviors and around the world place after place has legalized these things until finally the United States has become the 21st nation to legalize same sex marriage.

In the Olivet discourse Jesus mentioned a "falling away" and a time when "lawlessness" would be in creased. Then Paul specifically said that Jesus could not come until first a falling away or rebellion occurs and then a specific man of sin appears.

2 Thessalonians 2:

a). For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first,

b). and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship,

c). so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

Daniel 8:23 NIV:

a). "In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked,

b). a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

c). And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes,

The confidence of this understanding however has to come from the 2300 evenings and mornings and how the fierce-looking king comes from out of the four winds of Heaven. I'm afraid that the note would be too long.

Antiochus Ephinanes was just a punk anyway and had no part in this little horn business.

Did you know that Ward Cleaver graduated with a Master of Theology degree?

 

Hugh Beaumont
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(February 16, 1909 – May 14, 1982) was an American actor and television director. He was also licensed to preach by the Methodist church.

 

Edited March 6, 2016 by Dave Watchman
Antioch's Ephesians

[SINNERSAVED]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Glad to have you back brother. Please try to stay calm and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting, not your flesh. 

thank you brother, I will take that advise, and its great to start back up, I have a lot of questions and posts, to keep all of us busy for a while keep the faith , blessings

[ARGOSY]

On 3/3/2016 at 0:56 PM, Kan said:

 

From 457 BC to the appearing of the Messiah (27 AD) is 483 years, (69 weeks of years) then there is one more week of years until the time of the Gentiles (34 AD), or the end for the Jews to welcome the Messiah.

That makes a total of 490 years or 70 weeks of years. In the middle of that last week of years, Christ is crucified - 31 AD, He makes an end of the sacrificial system.

From 457 BC to the end of the 2300 days (of years) brings us to 1844 AD.

 

I have some agreement here. I use the same decree but date it to 458 BC, the appearing of the Messiah 26 AD, and the crucifixion 30 AD. But we are just 1 year out so that is reasonable consensus. Regarding the abomination until the end of the Jewish period, I just do not see that 3.5 year period existing in history.  The crucifixion brought salvation to the Gentiles and in Matthew 24 Jesus describes Daniel's abomination period of the great tribulation as future , not history. So I trust Jesus' words on this, that the last 3.5 years are future not past. Which makes sense because we are expecting a final period when Israel is safe (Rev 12) and when Jews are open to the gospel (Romans 11:25) and so 3.5 future years makes perfect sense.

Quote

 

There are 1290 years from the set up of the abomination that makes desolate, to its end. 508 AD to 1798 AD.

There are 1260 years (3 1/2 years of prophetic days, or 42 months) of the Papal reign. 538 AD to 1798 AD.

And there are 1335 days of years to the end of the vision (of the 2300 days/years). 538 AD to 1843 - 44 AD.

The "time of the end" is from 1790's AD to 1844 AD, and then the sanctuary would be cleansed or ratified. 

 

This is where you are completely out. Nothing significant occurred in 1844.  We have differing views, continuously expressing your view does not diminish my view. 

[Dave Watchman]

14 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Nothing significant occurred in 1844.

What about the Edict of Toleration?

It's not like it was anything earth shattering or anything but it was something.

Did you know that Suleiman the Magnificent also made a decree to restore and build Jerusalem?

From Wikipedia:

Prophetic interpretations[edit]

The Edict was seen by some especially among the religious as a specific sign leading towards the fulfillment of prophecy.

Research conducted by Michael Sours[4] into this subject and the records of the development of the Edict did not refer directly to the Jews but rather infers religious tolerance through ending executions for apostasy for Jews that seemed to convert making their social situation easier while actually keeping their personal and group identity in their Judaic religion. Jerusalem has had the largest Jewish population in Palestine in recent centuries since about 1844[7] and been majority Jewish since about 1852.[8]

The Edict was first publicly commented upon by Reverend Edward Bickersteth in his publication, Practical Guide to the Prophecies in the 1844 edition.[3] Adventist William Miller, and those that disagreed with him, though unaware of the Edict and the diplomacy around it, still looked to the fortunes of the Ottoman Empire even in the period.[9] Miller pointed to the year because of the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel 8:14, relying on the Day-year principle. The 2300 days are understood to represent 2300 years stretching from 457 BC, the calculated starting date of the 70 weeks prophecy based on the 3rd decree found in Ezra, thus leading to 1843/4. Bickersteth acknowledged the same interpretation and added a second - Ezekiel 4:5 - as a parallel to start the clock for understanding Revelation 9:15; taking 390 years as a period for persecution of Christians in the End time. Bickersteth takes this persecution from the triumph of Ottoman rule of Constantinople in 1453, thus 1453+390 is 1843/4, directly before these events. Thus, independently of Miller, a number of Christian authors followed the significance of this declaration from Bickersteth including Alfred Edersheim,[10] a Jewish convert to Christianity and a Biblical scholar, and Henry Grattan Guinness[11] who broadened the themes of the understanding of the edict and its importance, and into the early 20th century with Worth Smith who mentioned it in his 1934 Miracle of the Ages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_1844

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Toleration_1844#Prophetic_interpretations

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Spock said:

after a few weeks of intensive bible study, I have now come to this conclusion- I probably was wrong in everything I have said on this thread.  I hate saying that, but I'm not arrogant enough to think I know it all and cannot learn new things.

A mark of a real teacher: one who is constantly seeking to learn new things, and reevaluate old things when new information comes along.

Bad teachers -- and public institutions are full of them, especially at the higher levels -- merely teach established dogmas and never question them, and attack those who do.

[Kan]

On 3/6/2016 at 6:46 AM, ARGOSY said:

I have some agreement here. I use the same decree but date it to 458 BC, the appearing of the Messiah 26 AD, and the crucifixion 30 AD. But we are just 1 year out so that is reasonable consensus. Regarding the abomination until the end of the Jewish period, I just do not see that 3.5 year period existing in history.  The crucifixion brought salvation to the Gentiles and in Matthew 24 Jesus describes Daniel's abomination period of the great tribulation as future , not history. So I trust Jesus' words on this, that the last 3.5 years are future not past. Which makes sense because we are expecting a final period when Israel is safe (Rev 12) and when Jews are open to the gospel (Romans 11:25) and so 3.5 future years makes perfect sense.

This is where you are completely out. Nothing significant occurred in 1844.  We have differing views, continuously expressing your view does not diminish my view. 

The great tribulation which Jesus spoke about was ofcourse future, according to Daniel. From 538 AD to 1798 AD. That is 1260 years. Also Jesus spoke of the desolation of Jerusalem as future, proving that the prophecies in Daniel were to be calculated in vision time, where one day is one year. If they had been literal days, they would have been fulfilled within a few years under the ancient Persian reign.

The 3 1/2 years either side of the crucifixion, because the Messiah was cut off in the middle of the week according to Gabriel, has nothing to do with the 1260 years, or of a future trib. Somehow in another application tribbers use, the last week of the 70 weeks (for Israel to get it together for the Messiah), is separated from the 70 week period, and coarsely flung into the future... Where are the instructions in the Bible to do that? There are no time references given for that application are there? Anyway it's probably off topic. Sorry.