Spock Posted February 7, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.86 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 On February 6, 2016 at 3:40 AM, Kan said: The little horn of Daniel 8 is pictured as growing, changing, and lasting until the end. The Roman empire did not begin to take over the known world through massive campaigns, but little by little it succeeded in extending its power and territory, through numerous smaller battles which the rest of the world did not consider was the style of conquering the world, and yet it did. We note that, the spiritual aspects of this power are brought to view by the expressions concerning the battle in heaven, and casting down of the the stars, as in Revelation 12. This tells us that Satan, the great dragon, is behind the kingdoms of this world, with his aim to control the people, and especially to curb the activities of the Christ to come. After the failure to conquer Christ, he turns his attention to the church, and here the corruption begins in the world of Christianity, part of which apostatized and became the persecuting power of the Roman church, as you have pointed out. This power would also go through changes, but it would last until the end. From this I see that the little horn is the same work of Satan, from its military beginning until its spiritual ending as the Antichrist, but always with the same intent, to war against the truth etc. It is a different development, as you said, and I hope you see it as the same power in different forms. Yes, this little horn is none other than the antichrist, the man of perdition. The man who will then step into the temple and proclaim he is God. Daniel 8 is showing us this very very clearly. There can be no doubt this passage refers to the end of time, not just Alexander the Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted February 8, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,117 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,554 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted February 8, 2016 15 hours ago, Spock said: the abomination thing takes place in the middle of Daniels 70 week, 15 hours ago, Spock said: this little horn is none other than the antichrist, the man of perdition. I would not count on either of these things, Spock. Keep an open mind about them, or you many get caught looking past the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Bejon Posted February 8, 2016 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 15 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/02/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1977 Share Posted February 8, 2016 (edited) Dear All--Doesn't the text itself tell us when the final king mentioned in ch. 8 arises, namely "in the latter period of their rule/kingdom" (cf. 8.23), where the word "their" refers to the four kings who arise from the wreckage of Alexander's fall (cf. 8.21-22). If so, wouldn't that put the fulfilment of ch. 8 in the 2nd cent. BC? That's how the text strikes me at least. James. Edited February 8, 2016 by James Bejon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2016 On 2/7/2016 at 9:28 AM, Spock said: Yes, this little horn is none other than the antichrist, the man of perdition. Then who will then step into the temple and proclaim he is God. Daniel 8 is showing us this very very clearly. There can be no doubt this passage refers to the end of time, not just Alexander the Great. The little horn can't be Alexander the great or the first King of the Grecian empire to follow Persia. Alex is the great horn, replaced by four. Verse 8. (By the way, the Antichrist organisation applies the little horn of verse 9, to Antiochus Epiphanies, a local graffiti artist in BC.) But Verse 4 calls Persia "great" and verse 8 Greece is called "very great" and the little horn which grew monstrous, is called "exceeding great" in verse 9. Antiochus was not bigger than Greece, by any means, but Rome conquered Greece and became exceeding great. This greatness is not just about military conquest, but dark spiritual power as well, and so mentioned as standing against the Prince of princes - Jesus Christ, and trampling on the rightful role and place of His sanctuary in heaven over earth. Therefor the central issue here is about the sanctuary, right in the middle of the chapter. But it is also talking about a time when the sanctuary would be cleansed, (or ratified.) This little horn power is the same power that arose in chapter 7, on the strange beast with ten horns. A power in Europe, after the fall of Rome. It was a persecuting power, shedding the blood of the saints, it was religious and would reign for a time times and a dividing of time. That is 3 1/2 years or 1260 days, which in vision time equals 1260 years the reign of the Antichrist or Papacy as a world power. But its dark power over the nations would continue right until the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 11, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2016 On 2/8/2016 at 3:10 AM, James Bejon said: Dear All--Doesn't the text itself tell us when the final king mentioned in ch. 8 arises, namely "in the latter period of their rule/kingdom" (cf. 8.23), where the word "their" refers to the four kings who arise from the wreckage of Alexander's fall (cf. 8.21-22). If so, wouldn't that put the fulfilment of ch. 8 in the 2nd cent. BC? That's how the text strikes me at least. James. "When the transgressors are come to the full." The four Grecian provinces remained under Rome, right until the Barbarian nations pilfered Rome, and regulated its old territories, subdividing them and naming them after their conquests. This did not happen widely until the 4th century AD. Nevertheless, the term "transgressors" is talking about "the abomination that makes desolate" the truth, it is "the mystery of iniquity" - talked about by the apostle Paul, which was "already working" on his day, centuries before it would take control of the world. That is, before the 1260 years of the "dark ages," rightly named. "Transgressors" by Biblical interpretation is "law breakers," not any laws, but specifically the laws of God. Sometimes the Antichrist is called the lawless one. The ministry of Christ was to bring the benefits of His sacrifice to the world, through the knowledge and application of the sanctuary in heaven by faith, see Hebrews 8. Paul could not tell what he wanted about this subject, because the people were still living off milk and not solid spiritual food. The temple in heaven contains the laws of God, under or beside the throne, and the only mediator between heaven and earth is Jesus Christ. But the Papacy usurped this place and made their temples and priests and systems of rule in the earth, robbing the world of great salvation and light. This is what Daniel was inquiring about, and this is the crux of the whole book of Daniel. Therefor all (vision) time prophecies in Daniel, chapters 9 and 12, fit into the 2300 year prophecy that would transpire between the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, in 457 BC, and the end of the 2300 years, when the issue of God's rightful place would be resolved and understood by the world. The world is facing a test, whether they will follow and obey the commandments of men or those of God. The issue is about the law of God and worship. Hence we see the oft repeated phrase in Revelation, "Here are they that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus." The little horn continues tight until the end, and therefor it could not be BC only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted February 13, 2016 On 7/2/2016 at 10:26 AM, Spock said: i think you are looking to deeply into this passage. This is about one man, a very intriguing man, who will have the world eating out of the palm of his hands.....at first. He will help people feel hopeful again and should be instrumental in bringing about a temporary peace in the Middle East. This will lead to a rebuilt temple on the mount. then of course, the abomination thing takes place in the middle of Daniels 70 week, which leads to the great tribulation. This leads to some Christian persecution follows by the rapture and then follows by the day of the lord. Hello trumpet judgments. Greetings again Spock, Sorry for the delay, but I have been having computer problems and the following is a brief response. Without responding to all the detail of your and Kan's Posts, do you consider that Daniel 8:25 is speaking of the same events as depicted in Daniel 11:40-45 : Daniel 8:25 (KJV): And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV): 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. In other words this is a military power, and distinct from the man of sin aka the antichrist. Also there is no hint of the 3rd temple here. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted February 13, 2016 To ALL Daniel 8 is not about the the antichrist. Daniel 8 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, a huge enemy of Israel and the first to introduce large scale slaughter for religious reasons into earth. He is a precursor to the antichrist because Antiochus Epiphanes managed to split the Jewish people into those who served popular Greek culture and those who remained faithful to Judaism. He received worship by placing a statue of Zeus in the Jewish temple that was designed according to his own features. He gets so much prominence in the bible because he was an outsider (from Syria) and yet managed to split Jews along religious lines and desecrated the temple for 1150 days. Sacrifices were known as the "evening and morning", two a day. Thus the sacrifices were stopped for 2300 evenings and mornings. The bible describes this man as such: Daniel 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. History shows that Alexander the Great was the first king of Greece, his kingdom was split into 4 upon his death. Antiochus was a fierce king from one of the four Greek kingdoms, the Syrian (Seleucid) portion of the Greek Empire. He desecrated the temple for 2300 mornings and evenings. Regarding the "time of the end", yes Antiochus is a precursor to the antichrist, there are similarities. Other than that, the reference is merely referring to the fact that the desecration has an appointed end moment, after 2300 mornings and evenings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2016 5 hours ago, TrevorL said: Greetings again Spock, Sorry for the delay, but I have been having computer problems and the following is a brief response. Without responding to all the detail of your and Kan's Posts, do you consider that Daniel 8:25 is speaking of the same events as depicted in Daniel 11:40-45 : Daniel 8:25 (KJV): And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV): 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. In other words this is a military power, and distinct from the man of sin aka the antichrist. Also there is no hint of the 3rd temple here. Kind regards Trevor No, I don't see the little horn of Daniel 8 as exactly the same earthly powers talked about in the last part of chapter 11. But I agree with you that they are real military or political influences and or powers in the world. And of course, we recognize that the powers of earth are not of Christ or His kingdom, even though they are subject to His overruling. I can partly see the comparisons and parallels of the texts that you have made. And it is interesting that Daniel 11 demonstrates how all the kingdoms and powers are the attempts of the devil to centralize populations, control people and most of all oppress and destroy people, especially the Messiah and the saints. In that sense, the two themes in Daniel 8 and 11 are the same thing, just expressed through what I think are different political persuasions. I know there is a lot of disharmony over the meanings of the end of Daniel 11. We can see clues about who the powers are in the previous part of the chapter, such as "a raiser of taxes" and so forth, which can be linked to Caesar etc, so there is no doubt, but the last part of the chapter seems to be very late in history and even future, so its hard to tell. But I would not mind posting on a thread, on that chapter, the only trouble it's too big... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2016 5 hours ago, ARGOSY said: To ALL Daniel 8 is not about the the antichrist. Daniel 8 is about Antiochus Epiphanes, a huge enemy of Israel and the first to introduce large scale slaughter for religious reasons into earth. He is a precursor to the antichrist because Antiochus Epiphanes managed to split the Jewish people into those who served popular Greek culture and those who remained faithful to Judaism. He received worship by placing a statue of Zeus in the Jewish temple that was designed according to his own features. He gets so much prominence in the bible because he was an outsider (from Syria) and yet managed to split Jews along religious lines and desecrated the temple for 1150 days. Sacrifices were known as the "evening and morning", two a day. Thus the sacrifices were stopped for 2300 evenings and mornings. Antiochus was not "greater" as the Bible puts the word, than Greece, he did not conquer Greece, neither was he a world power or leader of a world empire. He does not replace the true identity of the fourth kingdom and its outcomes with the little horn, in tune with Daniel 2, with the image of the successive kingdoms, or Daniel 7 and or Daniel 8, or 11. The power that arises in Daniel 8, lasts until the end of time, just like the little horn that speaks blasphemies (it is religious) in Daniel 7. All the visions and themes in Daniel are built and based on the original format of the vision in Daniel 2, which the King had and God interpreted. When we start introducing minor characters of unknown with no relevance to world powers, we know that it is a decoy by the Papacy to get rid of the pointed finger of the Bible. You must recognize the identity of the Antichrist in the Bible, even as the reformers taught, and be wary of the counter reformation work of the Papacy, which today is the ecumenical teachings of prophecy which are totally untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted February 13, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted February 13, 2016 6 minutes ago, Kan said: Antiochus was not "greater" as the Bible puts the word, than Greece, he did not conquer Greece, neither was he a world power or leader of a world empire. He does not replace the true identity of the fourth kingdom and its outcomes with the little horn, in tune with Daniel 2, with the image of the successive kingdoms, or Daniel 7 and or Daniel 8, or 11. The power that arises in Daniel 8, lasts until the end of time, just like the little horn that speaks blasphemies (it is religious) in Daniel 7. All the visions and themes in Daniel are built and based on the original format of the vision in Daniel 2, which the King had and God interpreted. When we start introducing minor characters of unknown with no relevance to world powers, we know that it is a decoy by the Papacy to get rid of the pointed finger of the Bible. You must recognize the identity of the Antichrist in the Bible, even as the reformers taught, and be wary of the counter reformation work of the Papacy, which today is the ecumenical teachings of prophecy which are totally untrue. Sure I'm aware of some of the doctrines of the papacy. I am not even a partial preterist, but sometimes a prophecy is just clearly Historical. What is clear about Daniel 8 , it just has the two kingdoms , Persia and Greece. We don't have to guess what they are, we are told what they are: 20 The ram which thou sawest, that had the two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece This is unlike the little horn of Daniel 7, which is from the FOURTH kingdom, Rome. That little horn points to the papacy and does not relate to the goat (Greece). That little horn is the antichrist. Daniel 7, Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:36-45 point to the antichrist Daniel 8 and Daniel 11: 21-35 point to Antiochus Epiphanes So there is more about the antichrist in Daniel, than about Antiochus. Yet ask any knowledgable Jew, Antiochus is central to their understanding of these chapters and their are few more hated figures in history. We can add Josephus, and Hitler, with Antiochus. He was a very prominent figure in Jewish history. The prophecy is not for the end of time, but occurs at the appointed time, at the end of that vision, at the end of the 2300 mornings and evenings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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