Daniel 8

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I don't disagree.  There are quite clearly only four kingdoms mentioned too.    The fourth spiritual entity produces two natural kingdoms.

Hi Last Daze,

So....we know that the ruler of Rome & his government are gone, so who is this final Gentile Ruler & his government coming from?

 

Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

So....we know that the ruler of Rome & his government are gone, so who is this final Gentile Ruler & his government coming from?

 

Marilyn.

 

The Roman Empire is gone but its fallen angel prince is not.  He was cast into the abyss and Rome declined.  He has since been released from the abyss and is continuing the fourth kingdom he began centuries ago.  He has brought about the U.N. which will give way to the 10 kings briefly and then the man of sin, his ultimate objective.

Four kingdoms from a spiritual perspective, five from a natural perspective.

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is where we disagree. The Beast of this verse is the 7-headed, 10 horned beast John saw. The spiritual ruler of Rome was one of the heads of that Beast:

Rev. 17:9 The seven heads ... 10 are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is [that is, Rome, the 6th head of the Beast],  and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

As far as when the Abyss is opened, that does not take place until the 5th Trumpet, as we are told in Rev. 9:

9:1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit...

I see the prince of Rome as accounting for the 6th & 7th head of the dragon.  The heads are both mountains & their kings.  The mountains represent the risings of supernatural influence from the spiritual rulers, and the kings are what is seen in the natural realm.

When John wrote Revelation, the spiritual prince of Rome had been cast into the abyss [the beast "was not"], yet, the physical kingdom still existed ["one is"].  Describing the heads of the dragon as mountains and kings shows the supernatural / natural makeup of those kingdoms.

There is nothing to indicate that access to the abyss only happens once and at the fifth trumpet.

• and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come.  Daniel 10:20b     Come from where?
• They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.  Luke 8:31     Looks like it's accessible.

I guess the devil is in the details.

 

[WilliamL]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Since the other rulers & their governments have gone we know that God has dealt with them.

Persia is still here as a people, and so is its prince. Likewise Greece, Rome, and Babylonia. None are gone, neither does the Bible say they are gone. The empires of Babylon, Persia, and Greece are gone, but not the nations or their spiritual rulers.

Rome and Romanism is still very much alive and powerful, as is its spiritual ruler. That spirit just manifests its rule in a more subtle but no less powerful (actually, much more powerful) a form than that of the old Roman emperors. But like all the empires of the past, it dominates the economic and political affairs of its territory.

[WilliamL]

26 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I see the prince of Rome as accounting for the 6th & 7th head of the dragon.  The heads are both mountains & their kings.  The mountains represent the risings of supernatural influence from the spiritual rulers, and the kings are what is seen in the natural realm.

When John wrote Revelation, the spiritual prince of Rome had been cast into the abyss [the beast "was not"], yet, the physical kingdom still existed ["one is"]. 

That Beast cast into the Abyss "is [will be] himself also the eighth [king]": therefore, you would have to say that Rome is the 6th, 7th, and 8th king(dom)s/empires. Not convincing.

The Beast in the Abyss has the 7 heads, of which Rome was and still is one: the 6th. But the Beast itself is not the spiritual ruler of a specific nation; rather, it is a rebel fallen angel of greater power than any nation-spirit. In Greek terms, it is the most powerful of the Titans that were cast into Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4), what the Bible otherwise calls the Abyss.

[Last Daze]

22 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

That Beast cast into the Abyss "is [will be] himself also the eighth [king]": therefore, you would have to say that Rome is the 6th, 7th, and 8th king(dom)s/empires. Not convincing.

The Beast in the Abyss has the 7 heads, of which Rome was and still is one: the 6th. But the Beast itself is not the spiritual ruler of a specific nation; rather, it is a rebel fallen angel of greater power than any nation-spirit. In Greek terms, it is the most powerful of the Titans that were cast into Tartarus (2 Peter 2:4), what the Bible otherwise calls the Abyss.

While I disagree that's not what this thread's about.  Sorry for the detour Spock.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Persia is still here as a people, and so is its prince. Likewise Greece, Rome, and Babylonia. None are gone, neither does the Bible say they are gone. The empires of Babylon, Persia, and Greece are gone, but not the nations or their spiritual rulers.

Rome and Romanism is still very much alive and powerful, as is its spiritual ruler. That spirit just manifests its rule in a more subtle but no less powerful (actually, much more powerful) a form than that of the old Roman emperors. But like all the empires of the past, it dominates the economic and political affairs of its territory.

Hi WilliamL,

Yes the nations are still here but NOT THEM AS WORLD RULERS as God`s word says. Which brings us all back (as Last Daze suggests) to Spock`s theme, Dan. 8 - Greece the World Ruler. Also the spiritual rulers operate in the realm of the predominant powers as Dan. 7: 2 tells us.

Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

...Yes the nations are still here but NOT THEM AS WORLD RULERS as God`s word says. ..

And this of course is our difference.

The spirit of Romanism -- Roman derived commerce and laws, promulgated chiefly from and out of Europe -- still prevails over the world's economy. The World Bank, Bank of International Settlements, IMF, the U.S. Federal Reserve and Banks of England and Germany and The Swiss and the Austrians and the Euro-zone in general -- these control still the world's finances, and all these are arms of the Beast's 6th Head of Romanism, which is the 4th Beast of Daniel 7.

(Which engulfed the Greek Kingdom of Daniel 8, while itself being engulfed by Greek culture and language.)

SO YES THIS ONE AS A WORLD RULER. But not for much longer. The UN is making its own bid to take over as the 7th Head "for a little while," 17:10, via the global warming tax scam. And of course Erdogan is moving up fast on the outside. The U.S. is fading down the stretch, while trying to come up in the middle is...  

[Marilyn C]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And this of course is our difference.

The spirit of Romanism -- Roman derived commerce and laws, promulgated chiefly from and out of Europe -- still prevails over the world's economy. The World Bank, Bank of International Settlements, IMF, the U.S. Federal Reserve and Banks of England and Germany and The Swiss and the Austrians and the Euro-zone in general -- these control still the world's finances, and all these are arms of the Beast's 6th Head of Romanism, which is the 4th Beast of Daniel 7.

(Which engulfed the Greek Kingdom of Daniel 8, while itself being engulfed by Greek culture and language.)

SO YES THIS ONE AS A WORLD RULER. But not for much longer. The UN is making its own bid to take over as the 7th Head "for a little while," 17:10, via the global warming tax scam. And of course Erdogan is moving up fast on the outside. The U.S. is fading down the stretch, while trying to come up in the middle is...  

Hi WilliamL,

I think we agree on much more than we realise.  Part of what you said -

 

Quote

`Europe -- still prevails over the

world's economy

. The World Bank, Bank of International Settlements, IMF, the U.S. Federal Reserve and Banks of England and Germany and The Swiss and the Austrians and the Euro-zone in general -- these control still the world's finances...`

I so agree with this part of what you have said & see it as the ECONOMIC aspect of the Global Government.

I do not see the USA as fading but it will not be the world`s defacto currency. We know the IMF has been given that job. Now that China is involved there we should see the BIG RESHUFFLE this year of the world`s finances & who survives & who gets swallowed up.

I still see Great Britain & the USA as the POLITICAL mouthpiece of the Global Government for the time being.

As far as the UN being a world Ruler - it is the RELIGIOUS aspect of the Global Government. The `climate change ` language, come `guilt trip` is the religious motivating force & its universal morals are being received by every religion.

`....& while coming up the middle... ` as you say is ...we all know who. And in the next year or so there will come a person who can bring the waring parties together.

 

So you see we are moving towards understanding these things together, albeit some details differently.

 

 Marilyn. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Marilyn C

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

As far as the UN being a world Ruler - it is the RELIGIOUS aspect of the Global Government. The `climate change ` language, come `guilt trip` is the religious motivating force & its universal morals are being received by every religion.

It is trying to be the everything, political as well as spiritual. The plan re: global warming is to set up a worldwide carbon emissions tax, to be remitted to the UN, which funds are to support a global UN peacekeeping army. So far that appears unlikely, at least in the near term.

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

So you see we are moving towards understanding these things together, albeit some details differently.

Agree, however the details are all about how we interpret Daniel, chapters 7 and 8 in particular.