If no rapture

[rollinTHUNDER]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I am not "trying to force Christ" to do anything, would be a useless endeavor.

The point I am making is that when the Lord personally intervenes again in history, that intervention will be continuous from then on. For just one example:

Ezek. 20:34 “I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury/wrath poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord GOD.

This takes place on earth during the "time of Jacob's trouble," that is, during the time of God's Wrath. After the Rapture of the elect.

Yes, I agree, His intervention will be continuous.  However, it will take several days to carry out and fulfill all of the endtime prophecies, and this is where I believe God's biblical fall feasts come into play as well.  It's not like He will gather His elect and return immediately and unleash His wrath on the world. 

Those elect who are ready when He appears will be rewarded and attend the wedding supper.  But this is only the beginning of the judgment of the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18).  There will be other servants of His that will not be ready and will receive a little punishment, and still others that will receive a severe punishment, before He returns to judge the nations.  Note verses 46, 47 & 48 in the passage below.

Luke 12:35-48 - “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, ³⁶ like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. ³⁷ It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. ³⁸ It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. ³⁹ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. ⁴⁰ You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

⁴¹ Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

⁴² The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? ⁴³ It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. ⁴⁴ Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. ⁴⁵ But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. ⁴⁶ The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

⁴⁷ “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. ⁴⁸ But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

So before He returns to judge the nations, He first needs to settle the score with His servants who weren't ready when He appeared.  Who are they and what becomes of them?  We know that Paul said some will be saved, yet only as one escaping thru the flames (1 Cor. 3:15), as all of their works (deeds) will be burned up.  If these are those who receive a severe punishment, then who are those who will be beaten with few blows or a less severe punishment, and what becomes of them?

[Guest Teditis]

16 hours ago, Ezra said:

How did you miss the Resurrection/Rapture in these verses, when it is plain as day? The phrase "caught up together" is the Greek harpagesometha = Latin Rapiemur = English Rapture

 RESURRECTION

 

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

RAPTURE

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

It's not that I don't believe in the catching-up part... it's all the scenarios that people create afterwards.

I would call all that stuff a mop-up job that God does in staying true to His Holiness and Righteousness.

It just hardly concerns the elect at that point... what happens to us; what part/role we might play... we're in

Heaven at that point, secure in Christ and that's all that matters to me.

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Yes, I agree, His intervention will be continuous.  However, it will take several days to carry out and fulfill all of the endtime prophecies, and this is where I believe God's biblical fall feasts come into play as well.  It's not like He will gather His elect and return immediately and unleash His wrath on the world. 

It will take a whole lot longer than several days; more than several years even.

1 hour ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Those elect who are ready when He appears will be rewarded and attend the wedding supper.  But this is only the beginning of the judgment of the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17-18).  There will be other servants of His that will not be ready and will receive a little punishment, and still others that will receive a severe punishment...

Luke 12:35-48 - “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, ³⁶ like servants waiting for their master to return from the wedding banquet, ...

So before He returns to judge the nations, He first needs to settle the score with His servants who weren't ready when He appeared.  Who are they and what becomes of them?  We know that Paul said some will be saved, yet only as one escaping thru the flames (1 Cor. 3:15), as all of their works (deeds) will be burned up.  If these are those who receive a severe punishment, then who are those who will be beaten with few blows or a less severe punishment, and what becomes of them?

The wedding feast only takes place after the consummation of the marriage. It is shown in Revelation 19:

Rev. 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” ... 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God..."

The earthly servants at this time are those of Israel and the nations who came to faith in Jesus when they saw him Coming in the clouds of heaven for his elect, plus those who thereafter came to faith through their word. Perhaps also the foolish virgins of the Church.

However, because he will not fulfill this wedding supper event until many years after the Rapture, only some of those above will have remained faithful by the time of his descent upon the Mount of Olives. This is what the parable of Luke is describing.

[mevosper]

On 2/3/2016 at 0:39 PM, tigger398 said:

So there are a a lot of people on boards who don't believe in rapture. Well I'm opened minded. If rapture don't exist then we have a problem with these verses. 

1Thess 4:17 - Matt 24:41 - Luke 17:34 35 36

Tigger, did anyone actually address the "problem"?

It is easy to see how these verses could be rapture verses with preconceived ideas. Here's another look at these verses. 

1Th 4:17 KJV - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ ascended into heaven in a cloud (into concealement). When God descended onto Mt Sinai to talk with Moses, he was in a cloud. When he descended into the temple in Exodus, it was in a cloud. His appearance was always "concealed" by a cloud.

"Then we which are alive": To better understand this, we need to first look at vs 16. "...and the dead in Christ shall rise first". These are those believers (even saints and God-fearing folk in the OT) which are currently (at the time of the writing) physically dead. Once Christ's work on the cross was complete, all sins had been atoned for. It was not possible for those to be with God in spirit before hand as they were just dead flesh. But the Spirit quickens (Rom 8:11). Those that were asleep prior are now resurrected and with the Lord. This is why the dead in Christ would be taken first. Paul would certainly not be with the Lord first as he was still alive when Thessalonians was written.

 

Mat 24:41 KJV - Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Can you tell me the time of your death? Will it be while walking to the grocery store? Will it be in a car accident? Will it be of an illness or sickness? Heart attack? There doesn't need to be any real mystery in this.

Verse 39 is talking about the flood that took away all that were not entering into the Ark. They all died a physical death, by drowning most likely. But some may have died by concussion as bodies were being thrown about in the raging waters at the time.

When someone we know dies, sometimes we'll say the "Lord took them home." 

 

Luk 17:34-36 KJV - I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The same as Matt 24:41

 

When people talk about the rapture or 2nd coming, there is an expectation of a physical return. If one interprets these 2 events physically, there has to be a reconciliation of 3 different modes of transportation, or 3 different ways in which he is returning: in a cloud, with a boatload of saints on horses, and/or as lightning from the east to west. How are these 3 different modes of transportation reconciled into the 2 event(s) of the Rapture and 2nd coming.

 

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, mevosper said:

When people talk about the rapture or 2nd coming, there is an expectation of a physical return. If one interprets these 2 events physically, there has to be a reconciliation of 3 different modes of transportation, or 3 different ways in which he is returning: in a cloud, with a boatload of saints on horses, and/or as lightning from the east to west. How are these 3 different modes of transportation reconciled into the 2 event(s) of the Rapture and 2nd coming.

1. Christ has ascended to Heaven PHYSICALLY and is seated at the right hand of the Father in a glorious and glorified Divine-human body. Scripture says that He will return "in like manner". So this is not just a "spiritual" return which can be spiritualized away, but an actual physical yet supernatural return.

2. Since we are speaking about supernatural events and supernatural power, we must put aside all humanistic ideas about "modes of transport".

3. When Scripture says that at the Second Coming Christ comes "with clouds", we are not to assume that those are clouds of water vapor.  The saints and angels will all be in glorious white and radiating light, and the appearance from a distance of myriads of saints and angels will have the appearance of clouds. So "clouds" is a metaphor for saints and angels.

4. According to Revelation 19:11-14, the saints are seen to be riding on white horses, and Christ Himself is seen on a white horse.  We do not know the origin of these horses (which are heavenly horses), but they are similar to the "horses of fire" which took Elijah to Heaven in a fiery chariot.  So these are "real" horses, but not necessarily "earthly" horses.

5. When Scripture says that there will be lightning from east to west, that is understandable at the Second Coming, since Christ is coming to bring judgement and destruction upon His enemies. This lightning will be "the sign of the Son of Man".  That is also why we read that ALL the kindreds of the earth shall mourn because of Him, as will all the Jews ("they also which pierced Him").

Taking all these items into account, we see that none of this is related to the Rapture, but to the Second Coming (Jude 14,15): 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

[SINNERSAVED]

32 minutes ago, Ezra said:

1. Christ has ascended to Heaven PHYSICALLY and is seated at the right hand of the Father in a glorious and glorified Divine-human body. Scripture says that He will return "in like manner". So this is not just a "spiritual" return which can be spiritualized away, but an actual physical yet supernatural return.

2. Since we are speaking about supernatural events and supernatural power, we must put aside all humanistic ideas about "modes of transport".

3. When Scripture says that at the Second Coming Christ comes "with clouds", we are not to assume that those are clouds of water vapor.  The saints and angels will all be in glorious white and radiating light, and the appearance from a distance of myriads of saints and angels will have the appearance of clouds. So "clouds" is a metaphor for saints and angels.

4. According to Revelation 19:11-14, the saints are seen to be riding on white horses, and Christ Himself is seen on a white horse.  We do not know the origin of these horses (which are heavenly horses), but they are similar to the "horses of fire" which took Elijah to Heaven in a fiery chariot.  So these are "real" horses, but not necessarily "earthly" horses.

5. When Scripture says that there will be lightning from east to west, that is understandable at the Second Coming, since Christ is coming to bring judgement and destruction upon His enemies. This lightning will be "the sign of the Son of Man".  That is also why we read that ALL the kindreds of the earth shall mourn because of Him, as will all the Jews ("they also which pierced Him").

Taking all these items into account, we see that none of this is related to the Rapture, but to the Second Coming (Jude 14,15): 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

THIS is false, and not scriptural =he is returning: in a cloud, with a( boatload )of saints on horses,

and you used the word Metaphor ,but you refused to use it for everlasting, ? HuH... you never came back on a answer to solve that one ?

how do you see these are horses ? but not real horses ?..this is all not making sense, you say take scripture literally and you are using Metaphor all over this, but you fought me on the last topic, of Hell, please stand by one way or another, or what I said that there is Metaphors in some cases and real things in others , I did post that ,

but  Ezra you left out the important scripture ? that when He comes that He will gather His elect ? you missed that, so please don't take scripture out of context, and not give half, for scripture is not fulfilled when it is not in full volume of its text.

thank you ..Ezra just trying to help you out ,      blessings

[rollinTHUNDER]

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

It will take a whole lot longer than several days; more than several years even.

Not so, He will return after the great tribulation or the completion of Daniel's 70th week.  I don't know how you come up with years.  I would think that He will complete these judgments during the fall feasts, which all begin within a two week period. 

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The wedding feast only takes place after the consummation of the marriage. It is shown in Revelation 19:

Rev. 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’ ” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.” ... 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God..."

The earthly servants at this time are those of Israel and the nations who came to faith in Jesus when they saw him Coming in the clouds of heaven for his elect, plus those who thereafter came to faith through their word. Perhaps also the foolish virgins of the Church.

However, because he will not fulfill this wedding supper event until many years after the Rapture, only some of those above will have remained faithful by the time of his descent upon the Mount of Olives. This is what the parable of Luke is describing.

Rev. 19:9 & 17 are not describing the wedding supper.  By adding the two together you have effectively butchered this chapter.  Remember, the elect who are ready will go to the wedding supper, which is not shown here, but what about the servants who were not ready and received a little punishment?  You have left them out completely. 

Rev. 19 is not the supper, it's the wedding, when the bride has finally made herself ready, which is only after the last of the martyrs has been killed.  These are all the saints that will be returning with Christ on white horses (raptured elect + martyrs).  If you want to add scriptures, make sure you're adding the correct scriptures.  It should look like this:

Revelation 19:9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
Revelation 14:13 -  Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

Only the elect who are ready are promised the wedding supper (Luke 12:37-38), but the lukewarm will be spit out of His mouth (Rev. 3:15-16).  They won't be attending the supper because they have soiled their garments.  The lukewarm will enter into the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10), while the elect who are ready are at the wedding supper.  The elect will be rewarded when Christ appears, but if you notice the verse above, the martyrs deeds follow them, meaning they will be rewarded after they have been killed.   

Rev. 19:17 has nothing to do with the wedding supper either.  This is the supper of the Great God, as the angel calls for the birds to come and eat the flesh of those slain from the battle of Armageddon, defeated By King of kings and Lord of lords and His armies riding on white horses at the second coming.

 

Cheers

 

[mevosper]

59 minutes ago, Ezra said:

1. Christ has ascended to Heaven PHYSICALLY and is seated at the right hand of the Father in a glorious and glorified Divine-human body. Scripture says that He will return "in like manner". So this is not just a "spiritual" return which can be spiritualized away, but an actual physical yet supernatural return.

2. Since we are speaking about supernatural events and supernatural power, we must put aside all humanistic ideas about "modes of transport".

3. When Scripture says that at the Second Coming Christ comes "with clouds", we are not to assume that those are clouds of water vapor.  The saints and angels will all be in glorious white and radiating light, and the appearance from a distance of myriads of saints and angels will have the appearance of clouds. So "clouds" is a metaphor for saints and angels.

4. According to Revelation 19:11-14, the saints are seen to be riding on white horses, and Christ Himself is seen on a white horse.  We do not know the origin of these horses (which are heavenly horses), but they are similar to the "horses of fire" which took Elijah to Heaven in a fiery chariot.  So these are "real" horses, but not necessarily "earthly" horses.

5. When Scripture says that there will be lightning from east to west, that is understandable at the Second Coming, since Christ is coming to bring judgement and destruction upon His enemies. This lightning will be "the sign of the Son of Man".  That is also why we read that ALL the kindreds of the earth shall mourn because of Him, as will all the Jews ("they also which pierced Him").

Taking all these items into account, we see that none of this is related to the Rapture, but to the Second Coming (Jude 14,15): 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Christ on numerous occasions talks about the opening spiritual eyes. Revelation 3:18: "...and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see". This is spiritual talk for seeing with spiritual eyes. Christ healed numerous people of physical blindness. These are "shadows" of the real, the meaning of which is to open one's spiritual eyes. 2 Kings 6:17, Elisha prays that God would open the eyes of his servant to see the army on the hills around. This isn't a physical army, it's a spiritual army.

God is spirit, and those that worship him must worship him in spirit. (John 4:23, 24). This isn't talking about singing spiritual songs during the worship service on Sundays. It's talking about in the Spirit that we are born again with.

In Revelation, John is taken in the spiritual form no less than 4 times (Rev 1:10, 4:2, 17:3, 21:10).

There is no reason to think or believe that this so called "spiritualizing" is bad.

1. Christ's physical body was raised from the dead and before his disciples, he ascended in a cloud with his physical body. In the verse you are talking about, where he will return in like manner, he will return in a cloud. Dan 7:13, Mat 24:30, Mat 26:64, Mark 14:62 indicate coming in the "clouds of heaven". Not physical clouds, not clouds we can see with the physical eye. Deu 4:11 "And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness". Job 22:14 "Thick clouds are a covering to him...". There is no spiritualizing away here. It is all spiritual.

2. Supernatural events? Like only things that God, who is spirit, can do?

3. Clouds is not a metaphor for saints and angels. It is meant to create the idea of concealment or hidden from physical view. Recall no flesh has seen God. Clouds represent the idea that God cannot be seen by human eyes.

4. In Rev 19:11, John sees heaven open. This is portrayed physically as the rending of the veil in the temple at Christ's death on the Cross. Spiritually speaking, this is what happened. Christ's death was victorious and he is the true and rightful king. He now reigns as King of Heaven and Earth. The sword that proceeds out of his mouth, should we expect this to be a "real" sword rather than an "earthly" sword? No! It means his word is judgment and power - even now. This is a spiritual look at what took place at the time of his physical death. Remember Christ when he was on the cross said "It is finished". It is accomplished. It has come to completion, It is fulfilled.

5. Judgment did come to Christ's enemies (John 5:22, 27, 30, 8:16, 9:39, 12:31). It came at his first advent. The judgment was against those who did not believe in him, and against those that wanted to hang on to the Old Testament laws: the pharisees, lawyers, and scribes. Recall all the woes to them in Matt 23, Luke 6, and Luke 11.

 

You are correct. None of this is related to a rapture.

 

[simplejeff]

"IF there is no rapture?", the question of the title of this thread,

 then won't people be judged for what they do TODAY, good or bad ?

[mevosper]

28 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

"IF there is no rapture?", the question of the title of this thread,

 then won't people be judged for what they do TODAY, good or bad ?

1Jo 1:7 KJV - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Mat 12:31 KJV - Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

1Co 3:11-13 KJV - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

This fire spoken of in Corinthians is that fire (temptations, trials, tribulations, etc) we go through in the flesh. When we die, we only take that which we have used to glorify God with. Everything else will rot in the grave with our flesh and bones. Look at it like a tree in which there is a vein of gold growing within. When that tree is cut down and cast into the fire, all that will be left is that gold that has grown inside. 

Does that makes sense? This is the transformation that 1 Cor 15 is talking about. When we are changed, in a moment. When we die there is an immediate transformation of what has been quickened within us by the Spirit of God.

1Co 15:51-55 KJV - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?