fulfilled feasts

[Qnts2]

12 minutes ago, Joline said:

Well keeping and celebrating are the same thing.

Not really. The term 'keeping' is very specific in Judaism and includes the Rabbinical laws. Even from a purely scriptural definition, I do not keep the feasts.

On the Sabbath, it is against the Sabbath law to light a fire. A car with a combustion engine sparks to ignite the gas which is lighting a fire. I will drive a car on the Sabbath. If it is cold out, I light my pellet stove.

On Passover, I go to churches or homes of Christians to put on a seder to explain Passover from both the OT and the NT (what Jesus did during the passover seder). The church and the homes of Christians do not remove the leavening, plus I drive to those places. I used to do all of the cooking, but now have others do the cooking so the food served is not Kosher for Passover.

So, without the Rabbinic laws, I still do not 'keep' the Mosaic law for the feasts.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Joline said:

Yes, you did say Messianic Jews. You claim to keep the feasts don't you?

Well new testament scripture only mentions 2 made with Abraham. This is an interesting thing when you consider each covenant gave certain promises. Otherwise there would have been no need for 2 covenants. Therefore, one covenant can be completely fulfilled while another is not.

The Sinai covenant gave no Davidic throne, that was by another covenant made with David. Why, because the Sinai covenant does not give kings. You may say, it allows for them. But really the Sinai covenant only prophesies bad of the future king.

De 17:14  When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
De 17:15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
De 28:36  The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
 

 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Not really. The term 'keeping' is very specific in Judaism and includes the Rabbinical laws. Even from a purely scriptural definition, I do not keep the feasts.

On the Sabbath, it is against the Sabbath law to light a fire. A car with a combustion engine sparks to ignite the gas which is lighting a fire. I will drive a car on the Sabbath. If it is cold out, I light my pellet stove.

On Passover, I go to churches or homes of Christians to put on a seder to explain Passover from both the OT and the NT (what Jesus did during the passover seder). The church and the homes of Christians do not remove the leavening, plus I drive to those places. I used to do all of the cooking, but now have others do the cooking so the food served is not Kosher for Passover.

So, without the Rabbinic laws, I still do not 'keep' the Mosaic law for the feasts.

Sorry qnts, I am not buying this one. Judaism claims to keep a memorial of a memorial. As I said earlier I really do not have any interest in straining gnats of their traditional teachings. I will just continue to use scripture. According to scripture, there is no splitting of such hairs.

[Qnts2]

19 minutes ago, Joline said:

Well new testament scripture only mentions 2 made with Abraham. This is an interesting thing when you consider each covenant gave certain promises. Otherwise there would have been no need for 2 covenants. Therefore, one covenant can be completely fulfilled while another is not.

The Sinai covenant gave no Davidic throne, that was by another covenant made with David. Why, because the Sinai covenant does not give kings. You may say, it allows for them. But really the Sinai covenant only prophesies bad of the future king.

De 17:14  When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
De 17:15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
De 28:36  The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
 

 

Before the appointing of a king, the judges were the human rulers of Israel with the Prophets correcting. God saw the desire for a King by the children of Israel as a rejection of Himself as King.

Deut 17:¹⁴ When thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

¹⁵ Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

¹⁶ But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

¹⁷ Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

¹⁸ And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

¹⁹ And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

²⁰ That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

Deuteronomy was written by Moses before the children of Israel entered the land of Israel. In it, he foresaw the children of Israel desiring a King, and gave instructions, including that God would choose the King. When it happened, as you quoted, God warned the children of Israel that ideally, God was to be King, and a human King was much less then ideal.

 

 

[Qnts2]

13 minutes ago, Joline said:

Sorry qnts, I am not buying this one. Judaism claims to keep a memorial of a memorial. As I said earlier I really do not have any interest in straining gnats of their traditional teachings. I will just continue to use scripture. According to scripture, there is no splitting of such hairs.

You might call it splitting hairs. I do not as I grew up in Judaism and I am Jewish. Keeping the law has a specific definition within Judaism so to me, it means something specific. You can argue all day that keeping and celebrating are the same, but I know differently. I also stated I do not keep the biblical Mosaic law concerning the feasts and specified a few that I do not keep.

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Before the appointing of a king, the judges were the human rulers of Israel with the Prophets correcting. God saw the desire for a King by the children of Israel as a rejection of Himself as King.

Deut 17:¹⁴ When thou art come unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;

¹⁵ Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

¹⁶ But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

¹⁷ Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

¹⁸ And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

¹⁹ And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

²⁰ That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.

Deuteronomy was written by Moses before the children of Israel entered the land of Israel. In it, he foresaw the children of Israel desiring a King, and gave instructions, including that God would choose the King. When it happened, as you quoted, God warned the children of Israel that ideally, God was to be King, and a human King was much less then ideal.

 

 

Therefore, the promises made to Abraham in the covenant of Genesis 17, was not by the Sinai covenant. Rather it continued through David.

Again, there is always a specific reason God makes another covenant. Something lacking is not added to a previous covenant. God simply makes a covenant to fulfill a purpose the former lacks.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Joline

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

You might call it splitting hairs. I do not as I grew up in Judaism and I am Jewish. Keeping the law has a specific definition within Judaism so to me, it means something specific. You can argue all day that keeping and celebrating are the same, but I know differently. I also stated I do not keep the biblical Mosaic law concerning the feasts and specified a few that I do not keep.

 

I know you are Jewish and I know you grew up Jewish. I already said I do not agree with Rabbinic Judaism (Pharisaic) and its traditional teachings. I would prefer to go by the scripture. Hey, if you want to keep cultural tradtions I have no problem with that. But....Keeping (celebrating) tradition is so far different than to keep or celebrate "the feasts".

[Qnts2]

8 minutes ago, Joline said:

I know you are Jewish and I know you grew up Jewish. I already said I do not agree with Rabbinic Judaism (Pharisaic) and its traditional teachings. I would prefer to go by the scripture. Hey, if you want to keep cultural tradtions I have no problem with that. But....Keeping (celebrating) tradition is so far different than to keep or celebrate "the feasts".

I disagree. Keeping is not the same as celebrating. A Reform Jewish person might celebrate, but does not keep. The Orthodox term equivalent to saying they keep the Sabbath law in Hebrew would be that they are Shomer Shabbat.

From a perspective of a believer in Jesus, celebrating takes on added meaning and is used by some Jewish believers.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

I disagree. Keeping is not the same as celebrating. A Reform Jewish person might celebrate, but does not keep. The Orthodox term equivalent to saying they keep the Sabbath law in Hebrew would be that they are Shomer Shabbat.

From a perspective of a believer in Jesus, celebrating takes on added meaning and is used by some Jewish believers.

If it is not the same then why not use more scriptural terminology? You are keeping traditions as handed down.

[Qnts2]

8 minutes ago, Joline said:

If it is not the same then why not use more scriptural terminology? You are keeping traditions as handed down.

As a Jewish person, if I said I was keeping the law, I would rightfully be accused of lying. Words have meaning, and among Jewish people, the term 'keeping' the law has a specific meaning. All your argument means to me is you want me to lie. If there are any Jewish people who are reading this forum, they would call me a liar if I said I was keeping the law.