pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Esther4:14]

44 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

The first trumpet or the First Trumpet Call.  It is the Father who draws individuals to Christ. John. 6:44..  So He the Father is calling people to Christ all the time.  So there are millions upon millions of Trumpet Calls which the Father makes.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Where are you getting this from scripture.  There are seven trumpets according to Revelation.  There are not millions upon millions of trumpet calls unless you make the assumption that Paul and John are talking about different things.

[Montana Marv]

40 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

Where are you getting this from scripture.  There are seven trumpets according to Revelation.  There are not millions upon millions of trumpet calls unless you make the assumption that Paul and John are talking about different things.

Esther

There are 7 Trumpet Judgments.  Yet, 1 Thes 4:16 - For the Lord will himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead will rise first.  After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Harpozo, Rapture) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  and then 1 Cor 15:51-52 - Listen, I tell you a mystery; We will not all sleep, but we will be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the deal will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

There is absolutely no proof that the "last trumpet" in 1 Cor 15:52 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.  The first is talking about a Resurrection of some of the Just, the later about Judgments on the Unjust.  And 1 Thes 4:18 says; Therefore encourage each other with these words.  So does one encourage each other with being changed or being in the mix of things with the unbelievers. 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Esther4:14]

26 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Esther

There are 7 Trumpet Judgments.  Yet, 1 Thes 4:16 - For the Lord will himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead will rise first.  After that we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (Harpozo, Rapture) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.  and then 1 Cor 15:51-52 - Listen, I tell you a mystery; We will not all sleep, but we will be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the deal will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

There is absolutely no proof that the "last trumpet" in 1 Cor 15:52 is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation.  The first is talking about a Resurrection of some of the Just, the later about Judgments on the Unjust.  And 1 Thes 4:18 says; Therefore encourage each other with these words.  So does one encourage each other with being changed or being in the mix of things with the unbelievers. 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Really?  

Hmm, I am kind of thinking that He didn't have people telling different prophecies.  He didn't have Paul telling people about different trumpets especially when Paul description of a trumpets appears vague without John's revelation.   

Oh Marv, I am just at a loss of words.  

Of course the probability that last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is represented in the 7th trumpet of Revelation is greater than the suggestion that Paul and John are going rogue with their own visions of prophecy because we are body of Christ.  The hand does not work without the arm and the description of the trumpet given by Paul does not work without the arm of the revelation of John.  

This is what I call a hog pog because it is discrediting a logical conclusion and there is no real argument supporting this conclusion.  

Obviously, there is judgement mentioned in the book of Revelation during this time, but the saints are told to persevere, not to experience this judgement.  

So, there is a distinction between the wheat and tares.  The trumpets of Revelation are 

Basically, the battle of Jericho is what I believe the trumpets represent.  When the seventh trumpet sounds, the meek will inherit the earth.  It is the same effortless process of God's people in overcoming the enemy without the requirement of weapon or force on the part of the believer.  

We will patiently wait while He delivers us from our enemies.  

Therefore, all three together create a clear picture of what is likely to occur without the necessity of scripting the gap created without these connections from my own imagination.  

 

[Esther4:14]

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I see this as the first.  It's not a trumpet sounded by man because all in the camp trembled.

• So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.  Exodus 19:16
• All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance.  Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.”  Exodus 20:18-19

I think the first trumpet was the voice of God.

• I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”  Revelation 1:10-11

I think the last trumpet will be the same.

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth.  John 5:28-29a
• And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:31

These are very interesting observations especially in regard to the first trumpet.  I had not considered this.  

[Esther4:14]

5 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I'm not teaching anything I merely rightly dividing the Word of God... there is a difference between OT saints-friend of the Bridegroom, NT saints- The Bride of Christ
and tribulation saints ... they are all dead in Christ for His sacrifice redeemed all mankind for the blood of bulls and goats could not...

 God says to you to rightly divide the Word I suggest for your own sake to begin to do this!  Love, Steven
 

That is a very bold statement to make.  In my opinion, what you are doing is boasting that you are able rightly dividing the Word of God, which demonstrates that you have a high opinion of your own ability.

"We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise" (2 Corinthians 10:12). 

" Let someone else praise you, and not your own mouth; an outsider, and not your own lips," (Proverbs 27:2).  

So are you really rightly dividing the Word of God, or are you boasting?  
 

 

[Esther4:14]

On 4/7/2016 at 0:17 PM, Paradigm said:

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 

 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

A few questions to consider:

• What are the "times and seasons" mentioned in the above passage and what is the significance of mentioning this?
• What is the Hebraic background for the term "last trumpet" and "great trumpet?"
• What does the phrase "hidden day" refer to and why?

You know, I noticed these and used the verse you quoted as my springboard to a post I made yesterday with a comparison between Revelation 16:15

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

I do think the timing of the 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 is given in Revelation 16:5.  

However, I would like to consider your questions because I think they are relevant to the discussion we are having about the rapture, but I would actually like to hear what you have to say on them first.  

[enoob57]

4 minutes ago, Esther4:14 said:

That is a very bold statement to make.  In my opinion, what you are doing is boasting that you are able rightly dividing the Word of God, which demonstrates that you have a high opinion of your own ability.

"We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise" (2 Corinthians 10:12). 

" Let someone else praise you, and not your own mouth; an outsider, and not your own lips," (Proverbs 27:2).  

So are you really rightly dividing the Word of God, or are you boasting?  
 

 

You cannot properly frame the context of the statement I made no wonder you have so much difficulty with The Word!
So I give you the division from which I was writing about which you totally ignore and jump to some other prideful meaning
I didn't even write   Love, Steven

[enoob57]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Those aren't magic words.  Your insistence in using them often strikes me as suspicious.  Who are you trying to convince?

We will know when you start getting the hermeneutic process down when you start making the same sense The Word makes sense of  Love, Steven

[Paradigm]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

The Israelites arrived at Mt Sinai on the 15th day of the month Sivan, 3 days later they were presented to God. On the 18th

1) Nisan 1 -- first trumpet 
2) Iyyar 1 -- second trumpet 
3) Sivan 1 -- third trumpet 
4) Tammuz 1 -- fourth trumpet 
5) Ab 1 -- fifth trumpet 
6) Elul 1 -- sixth trumpet 
7) Tishri 1 -- Feast of Trumpets, seventh trumpet

Sorry just a correction on the month

Thank you Inchrist. Though I do not entirely agree with what I think your post is meaning, you are certainly correct in your approach. 

From what I have seen, the consensus seems to be that the trumpet, blast Voice, etc that occurred at Mount Sinai was on the 6th of Sivan which is the 3rd month on the religious calendar. 

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Inchrist has revealed the direction to begin to discover some of these answers.

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We must remember that the NT was not written in a vacuum. Remember Shaul (Paul) was a Pharisee of Pharisees that studied at the feet of the great Torah teacher Gamaliel. Most of the thought processes in our day would have been foreign to him and vice versa. 

In order to understand anything about prophecy or anything else in the scripture for that matter, we have to understand the roots and foundations for things such as customs, idioms, etc.

If I happen to mention something about making home made ice cream and watching fireworks, what day am I referring to? You know the answer to that question because you know the traditions and customs of this culture. The Bible does very much the same thing.

We have to understand certain basic principles in order to understand the things they are based upon. Isaiah states in various ways around seven times in essence that "God has declared the end from the beginning."

If that is true, why do people almost always begin at the end in order to understand?

Again, that which has been will be again and there is no new thing under the sun. We have to know when precedents have been set and recognize these cycles.

We have to learn to ask very basic, simple questions about a passage and learn how to search.

For it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, the honor of kings to search out the matter.

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I'll ask a couple of other questions that are also hints: 

• What kinds of trumpets were blown?
• What were the reasons that trumpets were blown?

You will not be able to discover these answers by beginning your search in Revelation, Matthew, or 1 Corinthians. 

 

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

7 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The part in red presumes that the answer must be in the Bible, which is not necessarily the case.

 

I know you're a fan of this verse:

• Surely the Lord God does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.  Amos 3:7

So, I was surprised by your first comment.  Paul wouldn't have revealed something that God was going to do to the Corinthians that wasn't first revealed to the prophets, would he? 

Not everything revealed to the prophets made it into the Bible.