pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, SINNERSAVED said:

I have a topic on that , the graves are open  on the day Christ risen, and so its interesting , that could it be the first fruits, yes it is and this is why , for the son of God, being the crème of the crop the one divine, to break the sting of death , has risen and so He has brought forth the first fruits we see, to God, for god, and then the rest will be of the souls that are saved by grace,

 let us see how God was worshipped and how it was  a custom,. and so Jesus fulfilled the first, of the fruits, of the mortal to immortal  and those that were ion  God were also set free, for we see that there are souls awaiting and are there for the rest of us , as we gather,

but where are we at this time, prior to the shout ? where the dead in Christ rises first , and then them that are alive, meet the lord ?

 blessings and peace

All we are told in Matthew 27:52 is that: The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

• Apparently not all dead saints at that point were raised, only many.  Who was?  Who wasn't?  Why?
• Whether they were raised immortal or their natural bodies were raised isn't clear.

You have to look elsewhere for clues.  What I find is in 1 Corinthians that it only mentions Christ as being the first fruits of immortal resurrection, not Christ and the OT saints.

I have my thoughts on who was resurrected and why but I don't think we know enough to say for sure.

[Serving]

8 hours ago, Paradigm said:

Acts 7:38  This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him inthe mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Do you have any evidence that the "church" in the wilderness is the Word of God? I'm not sure which lexicon that you are using to arrive at that. Again, kahal connects to ecclessia which connects to the English word church.

No doctrine in the scripture has changed, only in religion.

John 7:16

Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 7:17

If any man will do his will, he shall know of thedoctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

We can't just eliminate parts from the scripture to make it fit our theology. It plainly says that the gospel was preached unto Abraham and also the children of Israel. 

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No one comes to the Father except through the son. No one. That means Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. 

The truth is no hindered by a linear, dispensational theological viewpoint. 

1 Peter 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Notice how well the scriptures can speak for themselves with very little commentary. That is unless one is having to dismiss what a lot of scriptures say to support a theology. Then it requires a small amount of scripture and much more commentary. 

 

Revelation 14:6

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

 

Hi Paradigm,

Lets just go back to the crux of the matter for a minute .. you said that the eternal gospel was the same "gospel" that was with Israel in the wilderness, the eternal gospel .. so once again, if that were true, then how do you reconcile this :

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

How can that which "decayeth" and "waxeth old" and is "ready to vanish away" be the eternal gospel?

This is self evident and a basic foundation to Christ's ministry, that He was the bearer of a NEW Covenant which was NOT the SAME as the previous covenant which was "ready to VANISH AWAY".

That which is to "Vanish away" is not eternal I am afraid .. that which is eternal NEVER "vanishes away" else it is not eternal .. please ponder on this simple truth, it is not complicated at all.

Regards.

[Serving]

There is a reason we are all debating the timing of the resurrection of the saints and also the trumpets, that is, WHICH trumpet is in fact the LAST TRUMPET whereby the resurrection of the saints occurs .. and the reason is .. it is because it is a MYSTERY.

And what does Paul say?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

So the resurrection, according to Paul, is a MYSTERY ..

And WHEN does Paul say it happens?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump .. think about that.

If the last trump heralds the resurrection, which is a MYSTERY, then .. WHEN the saints are resurrected the MYSTERY is a MYSTERY no more because the resurrected saints will from that moment on, KNOW the answer because they will "live" the answer .. right ? .. other words, the MYSTERY is FINISHED.

So .. now look at this :

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So the resurrection can not happen after the 7th trump because it would no longer be a MYSTERY, neither can it happen before the 7th trump because the MYSTERY only finishes (reveals itself) on the 7th trump .. therefore, the last trump can only be the 7th trump whereby the MYSTERY is FINISHED (revealed)

So it HAS to be the 7th trump when the resurrection of the saints occurs, not before the 7th (so called "rapture") because that would mean the mystery is revealed and that would cancel out the 7th trump as the trump which reveals the mystery, and not after the 7th because after the 7th it is a mystery no more, but only during the 7th trump sounding can it be fulfilled as "the mystery is finished".

 

[Sister]

1 hour ago, Serving said:

There is a reason we are all debating the timing of the resurrection of the saints and also the trumpets, that is, WHICH trumpet is in fact the LAST TRUMPET whereby the resurrection of the saints occurs .. and the reason is .. it is because it is a MYSTERY.

And what does Paul say?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

So the resurrection, according to Paul, is a MYSTERY ..

And WHEN does Paul say it happens?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trump .. think about that.

If the last trump heralds the resurrection, which is a MYSTERY, then .. WHEN the saints are resurrected the MYSTERY is a MYSTERY no more because the resurrected saints will from that moment on, KNOW the answer because they will "live" the answer .. right ? .. other words, the MYSTERY is FINISHED.

So .. now look at this :

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So the resurrection can not happen after the 7th trump because it would no longer be a MYSTERY, neither can it happen before the 7th trump because the MYSTERY only finishes (reveals itself) on the 7th trump .. therefore, the last trump can only be the 7th trump whereby the MYSTERY is FINISHED (revealed)

So it HAS to be the 7th trump when the resurrection of the saints occurs, not before the 7th (so called "rapture") because that would mean the mystery is revealed and that would cancel out the 7th trump as the trump which reveals the mystery, and not after the 7th because after the 7th it is a mystery no more, but only during the 7th trump sounding can it be fulfilled as "the mystery is finished".

 

Hi Serving

Good point.

It was a "mystery" to them back then because they didn't know how many trumps would sound.  They didn't know much about the resurrection also.  But John revealed in Revelation exactly how many trumps..  It is no longer a mystery because the 7 seals are opened describing all the details of events leading up to Christ's return.  The 7 trumps are in those details.

However it still remains a mystery to many because they cannot fathom this.  Cannot discern the scriptures because the spirit of confusion is blocking many from seeing this.  To many of us it is simple, to others it contradicts their doctrine, and cannot admit that their church leaders made a mistake.  They will stay loyal to them to the end.

[n2thelight]

On Wednesday, April 13, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Montana Marv said:

The final last Trumpet Resurrection for the Just is Post Mill.  How else will all those born during the Mill who are Just receive their immortal bodies.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Age of the flesh will be over at the start of the Mil,therefore no one will be born during this time or after....We shall all be changed

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Serving said:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

So the resurrection can not happen after the 7th trump because it would no longer be a MYSTERY, neither can it happen before the 7th trump because the MYSTERY only finishes (reveals itself) on the 7th trump .. therefore, the last trump can only be the 7th trump whereby the MYSTERY is FINISHED (revealed)

So it HAS to be the 7th trump when the resurrection of the saints occurs, not before the 7th (so called "rapture") because that would mean the mystery is revealed and that would cancel out the 7th trump as the trump which reveals the mystery, and not after the 7th because after the 7th it is a mystery no more, but only during the 7th trump sounding can it be fulfilled as "the mystery is finished".

 

While I do agree that the resurrection / rapture happens when the seventh angel sounds, I don't see the seventh trumpet as what Paul was referring to as the "last trumpet".  I say that because Paul also describes the last trumpet as the trumpet of God.

The seventh trumpet heralds the ultimate regime change.  It announces the beginning of the day of the Lord when God takes His great power and begins to reign.  Out with the old (mystery Babylon) and in with the new (the kingdom of God).

At the sound of the seventh trumpet, Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  A few mysteries are no longer mysteries at that point including the mystery of the kingdom and the mystery of the believers immortality, the mystery of the bride.

[Montana Marv]

4 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Age of the flesh will be over at the start of the Mil,therefore no one will be born during this time or after....We shall all be changed

Need to read Rev 20:8,9 - In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves.  But fire came from heaven and devoured them.

Zech 8:23 - In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, "Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you".  Zech 9:17 - How attractive and beautiful they will be.  Grain will make the young man thrive, and new wine the young women.  Isa 11:8 - The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

Isa. 13:12 - I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.  Back to Rev 20:8 - In number they are like the sand of the sea.

So how does one go from man being scarcer, to man being like the sand of the sea.  Reproduction.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Paradigm]

12 hours ago, Serving said:

Hi Paradigm,

Lets just go back to the crux of the matter for a minute .. you said that the eternal gospel was the same "gospel" that was with Israel in the wilderness, the eternal gospel .. so once again, if that were true, then how do you reconcile this :

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

How can that which "decayeth" and "waxeth old" and is "ready to vanish away" be the eternal gospel?

This is self evident and a basic foundation to Christ's ministry, that He was the bearer of a NEW Covenant which was NOT the SAME as the previous covenant which was "ready to VANISH AWAY".

That which is to "Vanish away" is not eternal I am afraid .. that which is eternal NEVER "vanishes away" else it is not eternal .. please ponder on this simple truth, it is not complicated at all.

Regards.

Hi Serving,

If you take a look at the word "covenant" in the verse that you quoted, you will see that it is the number 9999. That means it was not there. This form of literary expression is referred to as an ellipses. The KJV translators supplied what they thought the word should be. 

We have to examine what the subject matter mainly is that has been discussed. Much of Hebrews including this section is discussing the contrast of the priesthood of Melchizedek with the priesthood of Aaron. In my view, the word "priesthood" would have been the proper ellipses rather than "covenant." Regardless, the word "covenant" simply does not appear in the verse that you site as evidence. 

If you are correct in your interpretation that the verse means that God's covenant is decaying and waxing old and ready to vanish away, at what point did it end? If indeed the quote "old covenant" ended, would not it have ended instantaneously? But there is a process of decay that is a process in the subject matter of Hebrews 8:13. As we know, the Aaronic priesthood was declining and would soon cease to be relevant when the temple was destroyed. 

Furthermore, your interpretation is at odds with so much of the rest of the scripture.  For example, Y'shua's viewpoint is at great odds with yours. He said that not the smallest jot or tittle would pass way until heaven and earth had passed away. 

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

Therefore until the heavens and earth have waxed old, decayed and ready to pass away, not the smallest letter or decoration on the letters of the Torah will fail. It is not possible that two absolutely contradictory beliefs can be true at the same time. Either your interpretation is true or Y'shua's interpretation is true. Both can't be at the same time. 

It is also important to understand that what is called the New Covenant is not in full force yet. A big part of the NC is that all of the chosen inherit their portion of the land. This is not complete yet. Also, it says that people will no longer say, "Know the LORD, for everyone will know Him." Don't think we are quite there yet....

Also the Hebrew phrase for the "New Covenant" could even be understood as the "Renewed Covenant." The word  "chadesha" often translated as "new" is directly related to "chadesh" 

Jer 31:31-34

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new (()T:2319) covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

OT:2319 chadash (khaw-dawsh'); from OT:2318; new:

OT:2318 chadash (khaw-dash'); a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild: 
KJV - renew, repair.
 

Isa 66:23  And it shall come to pass, that from one (OT:2320)  new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

OT:2320 chodesh (kho'-desh); from OT:2318; the new moon; by implication, a month: -month (-ly), new moon.

You can see that these words are from the same root. We do not have a brand new moon every month. The moon is renewed in its phases. 

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, Paradigm said:

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:17

And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

 

Therefore until the heavens and earth have waxed old, decayed and ready to pass away, not the smallest letter or decoration on the letters of the Torah will fail.

So the question is, did Jesus fulfill the Law of Moses? Did not the Redemption of the Cross cover the sacrificial price for all time?

Secondly, Jesus himself abrogated the Mosaic Law for divorce "for any reason": Matt. 5:31-32 requires a considerably more restricted rule for divorce than that allowed by Moses in Deut. 24:1-3.

Thirdly, the Law of Moses -- not God's Commandments from Sinai, but the whole Law -- was only required by God to be kept in one specific place on earth, "the land which you cross over to possess" (Deut. 4:14), "the land which the LORD your God is giving you for all time." 4:40 It does not apply for any of us outside of the Holy Land, whether or not it still is in effect there.

[Serving]

14 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Serving

Good point.

It was a "mystery" to them back then because they didn't know how many trumps would sound.  They didn't know much about the resurrection also.  But John revealed in Revelation exactly how many trumps..  It is no longer a mystery because the 7 seals are opened describing all the details of events leading up to Christ's return.  The 7 trumps are in those details.

 

Thanks Sister,

I also saw what you are saying, how later generations would understand "last trump" in the ONLY sequence of trumps revealed in the scriptures where "last trump" could be readily applied/identified .. the 7 trump sequence.

Glad you mentioned it nevertheless .. good stuff.

Regards.