pre trib rapture is fake true or false

[WilliamL]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

  On 4/6/2016 at 8:17 AM, Last Daze said:

There is only one coming of Christ, and the resurrection / rapture happens then.  According to scripture, it takes place at the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.  Agreed?

Why tap dance yourself into a frenzy and go through these contortion exercises when the answer is plainly stated?

• For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.  1 Thessalonians 4:16
• Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.  1 Corinthians 15:51-52

Now, if you're serious about understanding the rapture and aren't content with just "at the last trumpet", what do you think the next step should be?  Make up stuff that people want to hear?  No.  You search to understand when the last trumpet, the trumpet of God is sounded.  Doesn't that sound like the next logical step, for someone who really  wants to know?  So tell me, according to scripture, when is the trumpet of God sounded, the last trumpet?  Please quote the OT scriptures Paul was referencing unless you think he was just making it up.

If you're not willing to chase down the "last trumpet, trumpet of God" lead, how serious can you be?  Paul specifically ties the resurrection / rapture to that event.  Start there.

The part in red presumes that the answer must be in the Bible, which is not necessarily the case.

Many people say that the 7th Trumpet of Revelation must be the Last Trumpet, because that is the last one mentioned in the Bible. This is a presumption also: just because it is the last time a trumpet is mentioned in the Bible does not mean it is the one to which Paul referred. And the greater problem with this theory is, that the 7th Trumpet is 'given to one of seven angels who stand before God,' Rev. 8:2, which is not how Revelation ever refers to Jesus.

29 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

You don't refer to a generic, unknowable, imminent trumpet so specifically.  He knew which one he was talking about.

Exactly. But more to the point, the Corinthians knew what he was talking about, or else he would have needed to explain it; but obviously it had been explained to them before.

Therefore, I continue to hold the view that he was speaking about the old prophecy dating to Abraham, well-known among the Jews, that there were to be two shofars for the gathering and judgment of God's people: the first at Sinai, the the last and greater one to announce the resurrection of the dead and the coming of the messianic age.

Rev. 1:17 I am the First [protos] and the Last [eschatos].

1 Cor. 15:52 ... the dead will be raised ... at the last [eschatos] trumpet.

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

The part in red presumes that the answer must be in the Bible, which is not necessarily the case.

Many people say that the 7th Trumpet of Revelation must be the Last Trumpet, because that is the last one mentioned in the Bible. This is a presumption also: just because it is the last time a trumpet is mentioned in the Bible does not mean it is the one to which Paul referred. And the greater problem with this theory is, that the 7th Trumpet is 'given to one of seven angels who stand before God,' Rev. 8:2, which is not how Revelation ever refers to Jesus.

Exactly. But more to the point, the Corinthians knew what he was talking about, or else he would have needed to explain it; but obviously it had been explained to them before.

Therefore, I continue to hold the view that he was speaking about the old prophecy dating to Abraham, well-known among the Jews, that there were to be two shofars of judgment: the first at Sinai, the the last and greater one to announce the resurrection of the dead and the coming of the messianic age.

I don't disagree.  I wasn't putting forth the seventh trumpet as the last trumpet, just that Paul was speaking of a specific trumpet.

I know you're a fan of this verse:

• Surely the Lord God does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.  Amos 3:7

So, I was surprised by your first comment.  Paul wouldn't have revealed something that God was going to do to the Corinthians that wasn't first revealed to the prophets, would he?  I also agree that being called "the trumpet of God" makes it pretty exclusive.

Then the Lord will appear over them,
And His arrow will go forth like lightning;
And the Lord God will blow the trumpet,
And will march in the storm winds of the south.
The Lord of hosts will defend them.
And they will devour and trample on the sling stones;
And they will drink and be boisterous as with wine;
And they will be filled like a sacrificial basin,
Drenched like the corners of the altar.
And the Lord their God will save them in that day
As the flock of His people;
For they are as the stones of a crown,
Sparkling in His land.  Zechariah 9:14-16

And confirmed:

In that day the Lord will start His threshing from the flowing stream of the Euphrates to the brook of Egypt, and you will be gathered up one by one, O sons of Israel.  It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the Lord in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.   Isaiah 27:12-13

Clearly the trumpet of God, and clearly at His return, ushering in the Messianic age.  I hold the view that the sounding of the trumpet referenced in these verses is the one Paul was speaking of as the last trumpet, the trumpet of God.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Your teachings are delusional

Here are the dead in Christ

Rev 6:11

Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Note: Dead in Christ
Note: rest a little longer
Note: Until the number of all dead in Christ

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

Note: dead in christ
Note: resurrected
Note: first

Where do you come to the conclusion that you jump the queue before "the until the number of all dead" in Christ are raised?

I'm not teaching anything I merely rightly dividing the Word of God... there is a difference between OT saints-friend of the Bridegroom, NT saints- The Bride of Christ
and tribulation saints ... they are all dead in Christ for His sacrifice redeemed all mankind for the blood of bulls and goats could not...

 God says to you to rightly divide the Word I suggest for your own sake to begin to do this!  Love, Steven
 

[Paradigm]

I posted a few questions yesterday in this thread, but no one has addressed them. Those questions  will help shed light on where you all are moving in your conversation. You might want to check them out on pg 6. 

Here are a couple of more questions: I recommend not just posting something based upon a conditioned response. 

• Is the great trumpet the same as the last trumpet?
• If they are not the same, which one is last in sequence? 

Hint: to answer these questions, one may have to acquaint themselves with terminology that is not part of the typical thought process in most of modern culture. 

[Montana Marv]

11 minutes ago, Paradigm said:

I posted a few questions yesterday in this thread, but no one has addressed them. Those questions  will help shed light on where you all are moving in your conversation. You might want to check them out on pg 6. 

Here are a couple of more questions: I recommend not just posting something based upon a conditioned response. 

• Is the great trumpet the same as the last trumpet?
• If they are not the same, which one is last in sequence? 

Hint: to answer these questions, one may have to acquaint themselves with terminology that is not part of the typical thought process in most of modern culture. 

One must consider when the last trumpet call of God is. (someone is the last to be sealed with the Holy Spirit and the Bride is complete)  For it may precede all the other Trumpets.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Paradigm]

2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

It might be best if you can please determine the first trumpet

Good suggestion. 

If they will look into those questions pertaining to the first, last and great trumpets, many things will begin to fall into place. 

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I'm not teaching anything I merely rightly dividing the Word of God...

Those aren't magic words.  Your insistence in using them often strikes me as suspicious.  Who are you trying to convince?

[Montana Marv]

25 minutes ago, inchrist said:

It might be best if you can please determine the first trumpet

The first trumpet or the First Trumpet Call.  It is the Father who draws individuals to Christ. John. 6:44..  So He the Father is calling people to Christ all the time.  So there are millions upon millions of Trumpet Calls which the Father makes.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

13 minutes ago, inchrist said:

It might be best if you can please determine the first trumpet

I see this as the first.  It's not a trumpet sounded by man because all in the camp trembled.

• So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.  Exodus 19:16
• All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance.  Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.”  Exodus 20:18-19

I think the first trumpet was the voice of God.

• I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”  Revelation 1:10-11

I think the last trumpet will be the same.

• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth.  John 5:28-29a
• And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:31

[Paradigm]

2 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

I see this as the first.  It's not a trumpet sounded by man because all in the camp trembled.

• So it came about on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunder and lightning flashes and a thick cloud upon the mountain and a very loud trumpet sound, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.  Exodus 19:16
• All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance.  Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.”  Exodus 20:18-19

Yes, that is the Hebraic understanding on the first trump.  Determine what day that was and some things will begin to fall into place.