Kan Posted May 21, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2016 3 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: Then you are in blattant denial of history. Can you produce a map of Israel created after 70 AD and before its rebirth in 1948? Let's see one... How about some historical documents recording national treaties or involvements on the nation of Israel with the surrounding nations? Surely there mjust be some... How about some documents of other nations that mention the "Nation of Israel" and not "the Jews" whereby political engagement is being addressed? With all the diplomacy in the world there has be volumes somewhere if what you are saying is true, so where are they? Just because God has kept His convenant to "the fathers" and has opreserved a remnant that was raised up again in these last days doesn't mean Israel as a nation wasn't destroyed in 70 AD. The truth that Israel "was, was not, and yet is," is a factual and therefore the prophetic reference to the beast as being "was, was not, and yet is," is because the seven heads of the beast are both undiscernable and inseparatable from the literal Nation of Israel. So Israel is the last world power, and one that goes into perdition? The heads of the beast represent the nations of the world which carry the great whore. I doubt whether Israel is greater than all of the world's nations. The horns represent the rulers of the nations don't they? If the prophecy fits, it has to fit on all accounts, not just a few verses here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 6 hours ago, Kan said: So Israel is the last world power, and one that goes into perdition? No, you misunderstood me. 6 hours ago, Kan said: The heads of the beast represent the nations of the world which carry the great whore. I doubt whether Israel is greater than all of the world's nations. The horns represent the rulers of the nations don't they? If the prophecy fits, it has to fit on all accounts, not just a few verses here and there. The seven-headed beast that this woman referred to as “the great whore that sitteth upon many waters” which rises out of the sea is in Chapter 13 is “the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. However, this prophecy, like the visions given to Daniel, is concerning the rise and fall of nations, the coming of Messiah, and definite and detailed end time events which all deal with “thy people and upon thy holy city.” Such is why in 17:9 above we were given the specific account of the woman sitting on “seven mountains” to denote those empires throughout Israel’s history from its birth in coming out of Egypt to its rebirth in 1948 and to date as well, which will have had a direct correlation with Israel. That means from Egypt all the way up through all Israel's captivities and up to the fall and destruction of this eighth and final manifestation of the beast. The fact that in Chapter 17 the woman is riding this eighth manifestation of the beast reveals that once again the authority and power of another mountain, or empire, has been completely usurped by this woman through her seductive Jezebelian spirit; for she is now shown to be controlling the beast through her enchantments and manipulations. However, the empire did not start out that way, but finishes that way, for the woman is not on the beast in Chapter 13. In the end of that empire, just as Jezebel once plotted to “war with the” righteous to kill them and steal their inheritance, so will this eighth manifestation of the beast and the Mother of Harlots that rides it make war with those “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” However, just as Jezebel was thrown down and died, so will be the fate of this latter day spiritual Babylon. .Only by discerning and acknowledging the historic rise and fall of each of those empires which have had direct correlation with Israel will one be able to follow the presence of this prophetic seven-headed beast through history so as to accurately discern the final eighth manifestation which bears the red dragon’s imagery, (Revelation 12:3). For “the beast” in Revelation 13 continues to serve as a prophetic representation of those fallen angels and demonic powers that are here on earth manipulating the wicked in power to wage war against Israel and true Christians in these last days However, the key to identifying each of these seven heads of beast which will lead one to the eighth, is to remember that all the heads or empires of the beast must correlate, or show a relationship directly with Israel, or as the Angel Gabriel attached the prophecies to, “Thy people and… the holy city.” Thus, since Israel “was, was not, yet is,” so too has been the manifestation of the beast. That is why I stated, "The truth that Israel 'was, was not, and yet is,' is a factual and therefore the prophetic reference to the beast as being "was, was not, and yet is," is because the seven heads of the beast are both undiscernable and inseparatable from the literal Nation of Israel." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 12 minutes ago, BlindSeeker said: No, you misunderstood me. The seven-headed beast that this woman referred to as “the great whore that sitteth upon many waters” which rises out of the sea is in Chapter 13 is “the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” Revelation 17:9 - And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. However, this prophecy, like the visions given to Daniel, is concerning the rise and fall of nations, the coming of Messiah, and definite and detailed end time events which all deal with “thy people and upon thy holy city.” Such is why in 17:9 above we were given the specific account of the woman sitting on “seven mountains” to denote those empires throughout Israel’s history from its birth in coming out of Egypt to its rebirth in 1948 and to date as well, which will have had a direct correlation with Israel. That means from Egypt all the way up through all Israel's captivities and up to the fall and destruction of this eighth and final manifestation of the beast. The fact that in Chapter 17 the woman is riding this eighth manifestation of the beast reveals that once again the authority and power of another mountain, or empire, has been completely usurped by this woman through her seductive Jezebelian spirit; for she is now shown to be controlling the beast through her enchantments and manipulations. However, the empire did not start out that way, but finishes that way, for the woman is not on the beast in Chapter 13. In the end of that empire, just as Jezebel once plotted to “war with the” righteous to kill them and steal their inheritance, so will this eighth manifestation of the beast and the Mother of Harlots that rides it make war with those “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” However, just as Jezebel was thrown down and died, so will be the fate of this latter day spiritual Babylon. .Only by discerning and acknowledging the historic rise and fall of each of those empires which have had direct correlation with Israel will one be able to follow the presence of this prophetic seven-headed beast through history so as to accurately discern the final eighth manifestation which bears the red dragon’s imagery, (Revelation 12:3). For “the beast” in Revelation 13 continues to serve as a prophetic representation of those fallen angels and demonic powers that are here on earth manipulating the wicked in power to wage war against Israel and true Christians in these last days However, the key to identifying each of these seven heads of beast which will lead one to the eighth, is to remember that all the heads or empires of the beast must correlate, or show a relationship directly with Israel, or as the Angel Gabriel attached the prophecies to, “Thy people and… the holy city.” Thus, since Israel “was, was not, yet is,” so too has been the manifestation of the beast. That is why I stated, "The truth that Israel 'was, was not, and yet is,' is a factual and therefore the prophetic reference to the beast as being "was, was not, and yet is," is because the seven heads of the beast are both undiscernable and inseparatable from the literal Nation of Israel." Ok, I get it. I differ in my view, in that I don't see Israel as having any significance as a nation in the last days, even since they rejected the Messiah. But I can see how you see her as significant based on her history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 22, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, Kan said: Ok, I get it. I differ in my view, in that I don't see Israel as having any significance as a nation in the last days, even since they rejected the Messiah. But I can see how you see her as significant based on her history. Interesting… then what is your understanding of the following verse? Romans 11:15 - For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 On 5/22/2016 at 1:01 PM, BlindSeeker said: Interesting… then what is your understanding of the following verse? Romans 11:15 - For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? The receiving or casting away of Israel has nothing to do with her nationality, but of the oracles entrusted to them of God, which were designed to honor the Messiah, which unfortunately they dismissed, as a nation, but not as individuals. The things which God had entrusted to the Jews are essentially the Gospel, which was to go to the Gentiles, but finally had to be turned over to the Gentiles, because they had lost it. A study will show, that the new covenant was made to the Jews and not to the Gentiles, and so all who follow Christ today are inheriting the old Jewish covenant and oracles. The only difference between the old and the new is that the old pointed to the future Messiah, the new recognizes Jesus as the Messiah. Anything which points to the future is now done away with naturally. "The casting away of them," is not the casting away of the nation or of individuals, but the casting away of their attitude towards Jesus. They can only be received if they receive Jesus Christ. The Jews were rejected by God as the nation or theocracy by which the world was to be reached with the gospel. And their falling away or casting away, means that the gospel has to be entrusted to the Gentiles or the entire world doesn't it? It does not mean that God intended the gospel to be only for the Jews, but that they would be an instrument for its proliferation, simply because the surrounding nations did not want anything to do with God. Abraham liked God, and God took that opportunity to make a nation of him. Now with the casting away of Israel, what choice has God got other than to put the rest of the world on an equal footing with His commission to Israel? The quoted text has nothing to do with nationalism or a political thing, and has to do with the Kingdom of Christ. So to receive the Jews is to receive the covenant that God originally made with them, only with the difference of letting it work for us, and not to be neglected through a lack of faith. That is what the new covenant is, an agreement of by faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,041 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 426 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 23 minutes ago, Kan said: Now with the casting away of Israel, what choice has God got other than to put the rest of the world on an equal footing with His commission to Israel? What makes you think God has a choice to make? and how did your logic ascend to that of the Almighty's wisdom? Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.49 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 6 hours ago, BlindSeeker said: What makes you think God has a choice to make? and how did your logic ascend to that of the Almighty's wisdom? Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. I was asking a question and not stipulating an ascendancy to Divinity. When Israel failed the Lord, who would He choose to be His witnesses in place of them? Who would He give His gifts to? That is what I wanted to say in the context of Israel being cast away. It is not a political issue of Israel then or now, but of a failed relationship, and the Lord was saying through the Apostle, that He hopes that their failure will be a lesson for their salvation, and not destruction, and that the gospel to the Gentiles would encourage them about what God had always wanted to teach them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 On 5/21/2016 at 11:26 PM, Marilyn C said: Hi BlindSeeker, Yes, there is a `near & far` aspect to this prophecy. `Then the Assyrian shall fall by a sword not of a man, & a sword not of mankind shall devour him.` (Isa. 31: 8) Marilyn. I always wondered about whether the "Assyrian" was just an analogy for "an oppressor". The chapter is clearly end of the age and is a precursor to Rev 13:15 and Rev 9:20. So if the reference to the Assyrian is literal, which I suspect is true, then Islam is again confirmed as the beast empire. The site where the forces of Islam are said to gather before the last great battle is Raqqua, Syria. Also," Al-Raqqah is a city in Syria located on the north bank of the Euphrates River, about 160 kilometres (99 miles) east of Aleppo. It is located 40 kilometres (25 miles) east of the Tabqa Dam, Syria's largest dam. The city was the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate between 796 and 809, under the reign of Caliph Harun al-Rashid. With a population of 220,488[1] based on the 2004 official census, al-Raqqah was the sixth largest city in Syria." So IS is in Syria, Raqqua is their HQ, it was the capitol of the same clan that Abu Bakar Al-Baghdadi claims descent, and that fits with a lot of bible prophecy, literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,204 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted May 28, 2016 9 hours ago, Diaste said: I always wondered about whether the "Assyrian" was just an analogy for "an oppressor". The chapter is clearly end of the age and is a precursor to Rev 13:15 and Rev 9:20. So if the reference to the Assyrian is literal, which I suspect is true, then Islam is again confirmed as the beast empire. The site where the forces of Islam are said to gather before the last great battle is Raqqua, Syria. Also," Al-Raqqah is a city in Syria located on the north bank of the Euphrates River, about 160 kilometres (99 miles) east of Aleppo. It is located 40 kilometres (25 miles) east of the Tabqa Dam, Syria's largest dam. The city was the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate between 796 and 809, under the reign of Caliph Harun al-Rashid. With a population of 220,488[1] based on the 2004 official census, al-Raqqah was the sixth largest city in Syria." So IS is in Syria, Raqqua is their HQ, it was the capitol of the same clan that Abu Bakar Al-Baghdadi claims descent, and that fits with a lot of bible prophecy, literally. Hi Diaste, Interesting info there. And yes I believe that we are seeing the forming of the anti-Christ`s power base. It will be, I believe, the coming together of - Iraq, Syria & Jordan - the 3 areas that were once old Assyria. Notice that the Islamic State do not regard those boundaries that the Allies put in place after WW1. They are `uprooting` them. This is what Daniel 7: 8 is referring to, I believe & we`ll be able to see it in the next few years. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted May 28, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 28, 2016 33 minutes ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Diaste, Interesting info there. And yes I believe that we are seeing the forming of the anti-Christ`s power base. It will be, I believe, the coming together of - Iraq, Syria & Jordan - the 3 areas that were once old Assyria. Notice that the Islamic State do not regard those boundaries that the Allies put in place after WW1. They are `uprooting` them. This is what Daniel 7: 8 is referring to, I believe & we`ll be able to see it in the next few years. Marilyn. That makes perfect sense as Iraq, Syria, and Jordan are the areas where IS has designs on control. This is all fitting together as foretold. Wow! I wish more of us could see the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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