Young Earth/Old Earth

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8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, you're misquoting me.  What I said was, "When "yom" is used in conjunction with an ordinal number like it is Gen 1, it is always understood to refer to a 24 hour day."   I stated a grammatical fact.  You did not present anything that contradicted that.   In fact, what you provided was not an ordinal number.  "40 days" isn't ordinal.  It is cardinal.  So your approach didn't really contradict my claim. 

did not misquote you; directly quoted you. 

have another look:

And I stayed in the mount, according to the first time, forty days and forty nights;
and the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also, and the LORD would not destroy thee.
(Deuteronomy 10:10) 

 

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8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Jesus wasn't upending anyone's "wisdom."

know the scriptures? 

For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
(1 Corinthians 1:19) 

behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people,
    with wonder upon wonder;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
    and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.
(Isaiah 29:14)

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8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Mal. 4:5 is not claiming that Elijah is going to be reincarnated

we see that now, don't we? because certain truths have been revealed.  

but you read Hebrew? tell me what it is in the Hebrew that gives you the impression that this is anything at all but literal: 

מלאכי 4:5 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
הִנֵּ֤ה אָֽנֹכִי֙ שֹׁלֵ֣חַ לָכֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת אֵלִיָּ֣ה הַנָּבִ֑יא לִפְנֵ֗י בֹּ֚וא יֹ֣ום יְהוָ֔ה הַגָּדֹ֖ול וְהַנֹּורָֽא׃

did they not ask John if he was Elijah? they were looking for someone to be a reincarnate Elijah. because the text literally says:

אָֽנֹכִי֙ שֹׁלֵ֣חַ לָכֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת אֵלִיָּ֣ה הַנָּבִ֑יא
 

what is possibly figurative about the language here? see anything internal that says "someone in the likeness of . ."  or "someone analogous to Elijah but not actually Elijah because that would be silly . ." ? 
is there a certain jot or tittle that makes you say, "ah! this means not Elijah, but someone completely different, who is kind of a metaphor for him!" 
which jot is that? please tell, because that is amazing to me; it is certainly something no one before the time of Christ ever picked up on.
you are indeed wise!

thanks.

 

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8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The "shepherds"  were Levites from the temple.  The area where they were watching the sheep was in Migdal Edder and was where the lambs that would be used later that year in the Passover were watched and cared for by these temple Levites.  So they were not uneducated shepherds. 

thanks, that is interesting! 

 

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8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Malachi 4:5 was not fulfilled by John the Baptist in the lifetime of Jesus.

 

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if you will receive it, this is Elijah, who was to come.
He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
(Matthew 11:13-15)
 

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8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Quote

that is what i'm saying here. 
it is not because i "don't believe God" or "don't believe the scriptures" -- it is because i know not to lean on my own understanding; the scriptures themselves both state and demonstrate this. we should not therefore be so dogmatic about things that are actually not completely clear and are in no way "salvation issues."
what do you objectively think of this? 

I don't see where God is not completely clear in Genesis 1.  That's where you and I part ways, I think.   You are trying to manufacture a problem that doesn't exist.  At least, it doesn't exist for me because I look at Genesis 1 and simply believe what it says.

so your objective analysis is that your understanding of Genesis 1 is perfect. 

and you are so sure of it, and it is of such great import that other believers have exactly the same understanding as you do, with equal certainty, that you would separate brothers over the issue, part company with other believers who are not sure, and treat them like anathema if they don't share your understanding. in fact, you might say something like "a Christian has no excuse at all" not to comprehend it exactly the way that you do, because you understand it "the way God intended" ?

i.e. -- 

10 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I understand it the way God intended it to understand it. 
. . .
There is no excuse for a Christian to not understand Genesis 1.  No excuse at all.

that's your objective thoughts on the idea it's possible you don't actually understand the details of the creation of the cosmos . . ? 

 

8 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

I never claimed to understand it perfectly.

but you are absolutely, objectively certain that you know exactly what it means? 

that you understand it "the way God intended" ? 

that's not a claim of "perfect understanding"  at all, in any objective, unbiased sense of the word? 

yeah OK.  

[Guest shiloh357]

12 hours ago, post said:

 

except i questioned the grammar and demonstrated that the "rule" you stated has a contradiction, and you didn't appeal to the grammar. you simply said "i know Hebrew" 
-- that is boasting. 

you said this is always the case -

- which means it is never the case that this is not the case.
however that is not correct; i showed you a case where it is not the case. 

 

Yes, you did misquote me.   You took my original remark about yom and tried to spin it as if my comment precluded any possibility of an exception.  All I said is that when we see yom connected to an ordinal number like we see in Genesis, it is understood as a literal 24-hour day.   And that is true statement.   Deut. 10:10 isn't using yom to refer to a long eon of time as many claim it is being used in Genesis 1.   I was addressing THAT claim made by Evolutionists and others that claim that in Genesis 1 represents millions of years.    So really, this attempt force my remarks to mean what YOU need them to mean just you can have something to knock down only proves that you are don't really have a cogent, intelligent argument against what I am saying.
 

Quote

 

we see that now, don't we? because certain truths have been revealed.  

but you read Hebrew? tell me what it is in the Hebrew that gives you the impression that this is anything at all but literal: 

מלאכי 4:5 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
הִנֵּ֤ה אָֽנֹכִי֙ שֹׁלֵ֣חַ לָכֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת אֵלִיָּ֣ה הַנָּבִ֑יא לִפְנֵ֗י בֹּ֚וא יֹ֣ום יְהוָ֔ה הַגָּדֹ֖ול וְהַנֹּורָֽא׃

did they not ask John if he was Elijah? they were looking for someone to be a reincarnate Elijah. because the text literally says:

אָֽנֹכִי֙ שֹׁלֵ֣חַ לָכֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת אֵלִיָּ֣ה הַנָּבִ֑יא
 

what is possibly figurative about the language here? see anything internal that says "someone in the likeness of . ."  or "someone analogous to Elijah but not actually Elijah because that would be silly . ." ? 
is there a certain jot or tittle that makes you say, "ah! this means not Elijah, but someone completely different, who is kind of a metaphor for him!" 
which jot is that? please tell, because that is amazing to me; it is certainly something no one before the time of Christ ever picked up on.
you are indeed wise!

thanks.

 

 

You're confusing "literal" with "face-value."   Yes, if took that passage and applied the same kind of wooden face-value approach that you do, I would probably come off with some nonsensical interpretation like what  you're proposing.

Most theologians would understand this passage one of two possible ways.   Either God is going to send another person in the last days to minister in the spirit of Elijah, or God is sending Elijah himself.  

The reason I can reject the nonsensical reincarnation scenario is because we know from the Scriptures that Elijah didn't die.  Elijah was taken alive to heaven in a chariot of fire.  Elijah's spirit is in heaven.   So I can read Mal. 4:5 in the light of that truth and know that either Elijah is coming back  to fulfill that passage, or God is sending another man to be a prophet to minister in the spirit of Elijah's ministry and He is, in that sense, calling that person "Elijah" in order to highlight the nature of his ministry.

  

Quote

 

 

 

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if you will receive it, this is Elijah, who was to come.
He that has ears to hear, let him hear.
(Matthew 11:13-15)

 

 

Malachi 4:5 refers to Elijah coming before the Great and terrible Day of the Lord.   That refers to the Tribulation period, not the first coming of Jesus.

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so your objective analysis is that your understanding of Genesis 1 is perfect. 
 

NO, what I said is that I believe what it says.  I never said I understand it "perfectly."  I also stated earlier in response to the same accusation from you that I never made the claim, but you keep trying to assign it to me, because without that you really don't have an argument.    If you think there is a hidden meaning in Genesis, that's up to you.  You can believe whatever you want, as far as I am concerned.    But when I read this, I read it as a historical narrative.   

Genesis 1 is not a deep theological or philosophical treaties.  The purpose of Genesis 1 is to simply tell us where we came from.  It is a historical narrative.  I don't see what is so complicated or mystical about Genesis 1 that a simple child cannot  understand it.

 

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and you are so sure of it, and it is of such great import that other believers have exactly the same understanding as you do, with equal certainty, that you would separate brothers over the issue, part company with other believers who are not sure, and treat them like anathema if they don't share your understanding. in fact, you might say something like "a Christian has no excuse at all" not to comprehend it exactly the way that you do, because you understand it "the way God intended" ?

Again with the lying spins and misquotes...

I never said that everyone has to have the exact same understanding I do.   And I am not separating anyone over it.  What is happening here is that is if I don't acquiesce to your demand that I admit that I don't understand it any better than you, than I am just being horrible and calling you names.   You can't seem to handle the fact that I believe I can read and understand the account in Genesis 1 and that I am not of the view that Genesis 1 could have one of several different meanings.    I approach Genesis 1 with the ONLY meaning the Bible supplies for it.    

Nowhere in the Bible is any other meaning supplied for Genesis 1 outside of the simple claims that chapter makes.   If you are looking for some other deeper meaning or mystical hidden symbolism, you will have to go outside of the Bible to find it.

I am not treating you like you are "anathema."   If what I am saying here is infuriating you to the point that you feel like I am somehow persecuting you for not submitting the values that you are trying to assign to me, you obviously have some underlying emotional issues you need to deal with.
 

Quote

 

that's your objective thoughts on the idea it's possible you don't actually understand the details of the creation of the cosmos . . ? 

 

I don't need to understand the details and nuts and bolts of the Cosmos to read and believe Genesis 1 as it is clearly written in the Bible.  I never claimed to know every detail of the cosmos.  But that doesn't mean that God didn't create the world in six 24 hour days.

Quote

but you are absolutely, objectively certain that you know exactly what it means? 

that you understand it "the way God intended" ? 

that's not a claim of "perfect understanding"  at all, in any objective, unbiased sense of the word? 

yeah OK.  

I accept the ONLY meaning that the Bible gives to Genesis 1.   I accept it and I believe it.   I have not made any claim to "perfect understanding"  even you are desperate to assign that to me because you have no other real argument or refutation about anything I have said. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

,.  

   So I can read Mal. 4:5 in the light of that truth and know that either Elijah is coming back  to fulfill that passage, or God is sending another man to be a prophet to minister in the spirit of Elijah's ministry and He is, in that sense, calling that person "Elijah" in order to highlight the nature of his ministry.

  

Malachi 4:5 refers to Elijah coming before the Great and terrible Day of the Lord.   That refers to the Tribulation period, not the first coming of Jesus.

 

You are simply wrong

Acts 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable,<2016> day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful<gr. 2016> day of the LORD:
 

Joe 2:11  And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;<gr 2016> and who can abide it?
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible<gr 2016> day of the LORD come.

Another role back from the work of God in the Gospel? Another redo?

[enoob57]

The plain simple written format of Gen 1 is 6 literal 24 hour periods and God reiterates this in another plain simple
pattern of writ in Exodus... Where anyone having another idea must violate the plain simple read of the text!
Now~ the why awaits you in going before The Lord~ here is where one must be precise about it: (by what authority do
you violate the plain simple meaning of God's Word)? Using scientist looking through a cursed creation where only
darkness and shadows are present? Myself I will station myself upon the plain simple text of God's Word because it
is my foundation for life and peace... Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Joline said:

You are simply wrong

Acts 2:16  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17  And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18  And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19  And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable,<2016> day of the Lord come:
21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 

Mal 4:5  Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful<gr. 2016> day of the LORD:
 

Joe 2:11  And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;<gr 2016> and who can abide it?
Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible<gr 2016> day of the LORD come.

Another role back from the work of God in the Gospel? Another redo?

The great and terrible day of the Lord has not come to pass, so Malachi 4:5 is still future.