The problem with sacraments

[Guest]

1 minute ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes it is a myth.   The Rabbis said that the Oral law was handed down from Moses to Joshua and on down to the present day and that there has been unbroken chain of transmission for the last 4,000 years or so, and that is demonstrably false.  They claim that it is as inspired and more binding than the written Torah.  The ones who started the myth about the Oral were the predecessors to Pharisees known as the Hasidim who are the namesake of the modern Hasidic movement.   But the original Hasidim only date back to about 250 BC.  So that's where the myth got its origin.

Same thing though. The Pharisees and rabbinic Judaism hold it as law all the same.

[Guest shiloh357]

Just now, Joline said:

Same thing though. The Pharisees and rabbinic Judaism hold it as law all the same.

Yes, which is what I said.  They hold that the oral law is MORE binding than the written Torah in the Bible, and Jesus criticized them for that.   There is no evidence that the oral law goes back to Moses.  It is pure myth.   Even Michael Brown refutes the rabbinic claims about the Oral law and claims it is just made up.

[Qnts2]

23 minutes ago, Teditis said:

I appreciate the time you took to explain but we'll have to agree to disagree.

Jesus' atonement was for all people, the Jew first, then the Gentile. There is no need for a special

atonement for the nation of Israel... He is their Messiah first, after all.

Each Jew is on their own in these days and has to make Peace with Jesus as they are called to do.

They will be given no special exception to accessing this atonement that isn't already given to both

Jew and Gentile.

As for the dispensation of the nation of Israel, God may have special plans... but that has nothing to do with the

salvation of individual Jews.

Shiloh's statement of some sort of dual-atonement is nothing but buggery and foolishness.

The national salvation, atonement accepted, is in the future or as you call it, the dispensation of the nation of Israel. At that time, Yom Kippur will be fulfilled.

I agree that today, each individual, Jew or Gentile, has to make peace with Jesus.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, which is what I said.  They hold that the oral law is MORE binding than the written Torah in the Bible, and Jesus criticized them for that.   There is no evidence that the oral law goes back to Moses.  It is pure myth.   Even Michael Brown refutes the rabbinic claims about the Oral law and claims it is just made up.

So, what where does Jewish thought come from among Messianics,? What makes it Jewish?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

The national salvation, atonement accepted, is in the future or as you call it, the dispensation of the nation of Israel. At that time, Yom Kippur will be fulfilled.

I agree that today, each individual, Jew or Gentile, has to make peace with Jesus.

 

No, Yom kippur has already been fulfilled in Christ 2000 years ago. We are walking in the power of that fulfillment already.

Jew's are and will also enter into that power when they accept his work 2000 years ago.

[Guest shiloh357]

7 minutes ago, Joline said:

So, what where does Jewish thought come from among Messianics,? What makes it Jewish?

The Bible is the answer to both questions.  The Bible is very Jewish.

[Qnts2]

Just now, shiloh357 said:

Yes, which is what I said.  They hold that the oral law is MORE binding than the written Torah in the Bible, and Jesus criticized them for that.   There is no evidence that the oral law goes back to Moses.  It is pure myth.   Even Michael Brown refutes the rabbinic claims about the Oral law and claims it is just made up.

Actually, that is incorrect. The Torah is the highest level of authority in Judaism. The Nach (Prophets and Writings) is second in authority. Third in authority is the Mishnah (Oral law). The Mishnah is supposedly more details on how to keep the Mosaic laws but if a Mishnah section contradicts the Tenakh, it is considered invalid.

Jesus criticized the Pharisees for expanding the law (fence around the law), which in some circumstances went to far and actually violated the Mosaic law. The fence around the law is actually in the Gemarah. The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary and debates with disagreeing opinions presented in a manner for teaching.

I agree with Michael Brown that the Oral law was not given by God at Mt. Sinai. Messianic Judaism does not accept the Talmud as a revelation from God, but is man made. Much of the Talmud is a discussion about scripture so some might be interesting or even correct, but it is not from God. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

I am not changing the platform.  I am trying to explain that the Festivals speak to a lot more issues in the Bible than you are currently aware of.  They speak to God's prophetic timeline in both the first and second advents of Jesus up to and including the millennial reign of Christ.   They also contain theological truth for our daily lives, as well.   

That is not changing any platform.  I just want to you to see the richness of the truth those festivals contain.

Where are you getting your Messianic understanding from Shiloh?

I know the Gospel of our salvation has been preached. Our sins, and the sins of all men have had an atonement already made. Some have accepted it some have not. So Christ has finished that work. He need not fulfill it again Shiloh

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The Bible is the answer to both questions.  The Bible is very Jewish.

Really, well Paul spoke concerning Gentiles in the body of Christ.

But you are saying the bible is very Pharasaic?

[Guest shiloh357]

11 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

Actually, that is incorrect. The Torah is the highest level of authority in Judaism. The Nach (Prophets and Writings) is second in authority. Third in authority is the Mishnah (Oral law). The Mishnah is supposedly more details on how to keep the Mosaic laws but if a Mishnah section contradicts the Tenakh, it is considered invalid.

Jesus criticized the Pharisees for expanding the law (fence around the law), which in some circumstances went to far and actually violated the Mosaic law. The fence around the law is actually in the Gemarah. The Gemarah is Rabbinical commentary and debates with disagreeing opinions presented in a manner for teaching.

I agree with Michael Brown that the Oral law was not given by God at Mt. Sinai. Messianic Judaism does not accept the Talmud as a revelation from God, but is man made. Much of the Talmud is a discussion about scripture so some might be interesting or even correct, but it is not from God. 

According to Pirkei Avot in the Talmud, the Oral Law is of divine origin AND is more binding than the written Torah and takes precedence over it.  Jacob Neusner also confirms this as well in his book on the Talmud.   It is said that God gave two Torahs to Moses, the written and the oral.