The problem with sacraments

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, but what you don't seem to understand that is that there is a dual fulfillment.  In fact, even Passover is echoed through the last 42 months of God's wrath in the book of Revelation.    There are more than one prophecies about Jesus in the Day of Atonement.  It speaks to his atonement on the cross, but it also points to a future day of judgment.  No one is saying that the atonement isn't finished.  That is a false value you are assigning to me.  It is a false accusation you are making against me.

So there is no problem here, except the one you are trying manufacture because you are trying win a debate that you can't win based on the weak and incorrect information you have been spewing so far in this thread.  You clearly don't understand the nature of the festivals, particularly their prophetic character. 

No there is no dual fulfillment. The POWER of his work has been in operation for two thousand years now. there is no dual fulfillment. Just as the fulfillment of the Passover has not been fulfilled for Gentiles according to the law. We will be judged according to the prophetic utterances of the law. We have already escaped it in Christ two thousand years ago. It need not be refulfilled in him. 

De 30:7  And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.
 

The problem here is

12  And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. {suffereth…: or, is gotten by force, and they that thrust men }
13  For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
 

Christ preached the kingdom of heaven.

It's already done, doesn't need to be redone.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Qnts2 said:

If you are saying Jews for Jesus is a denomination, that would not be correct. But, then again, Messianic Judaism is not a denomination.

Jews for Jesus is a missionary board. At one time, that name caught on among Jewish believers in Jesus, but strictly speaking Jews for Jesus is a missions organization. The name, Jews for Jesus, when it first came into use was viewed by some as an oxymoron. The thought was Jews would not be for Jesus, and the idea of Jews being for Jesus was unheard of. Because of the power of that statement, that there are Jews for Jesus, Jewish people who believed on Jesus started to use the name of the missionary board. 

Now for those who do call themselves Jews for Jesus. Most also called themselves Messianic Jews. Many of the missionaries who work for Jews for Jesus attend Messianic Judaism synagogues, so there really is not a distinction.

Shilo is pretty accurate. 

And??????????????Do they also believe the day of atonement has not been fulfilled or not?

[Guest shiloh357]

5 minutes ago, Joline said:

No there is no dual fulfillment. The POWER of his work has been in operation for two thousand years now. there is no dual fulfillment

That is where you are wrong.  There is a dual fulfilment and that does not hurt the full and final atoning work of Christ at all.   You don't know what you're talking about.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That is where you are wrong.  There is a dual fulfilment and that does not hurt the full and final atoning work of Christ at all.   You don't know what you're talking about.

Well Shiloh your rabbinics, based on oral law called tradition in the scripture is wrong

Ac 13:27  For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

Why do you assign an office to men they did not hold from Moses?

Why do you believe the Sanhedrin were given the office to teach the prophets?

That was the ministry Given to the apostles of the Christ.

[Guest Teditis]

16 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That is where you are wrong.  There is a dual fulfilment and that does not hurt the full and final atoning work of Christ at all.   You don't know what you're talking about.

That heretical!

Jesus completed the atonement once for all.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

That is where you are wrong.  There is a dual fulfilment and that does not hurt the full and final atoning work of Christ at all.   You don't know what you're talking about.

LOL, The full and final work of Christ?

Now this is simply a denial of the power of his work 2000 years ago.

 

[Qnts2]

36 minutes ago, Teditis said:

That heretical!

Jesus completed the atonement once for all.

That is not heretical.

Jesus did die for sins, once and for all. But, if you are talking about the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, that atonement is a national atonement for the nation of Israel. When the children of Israel, as a nation accept Jesus as the Messiah, then Yom Kippur will be fulfilled. 

There were also daily sacrifices for atonement. Those sacrifices were for the sins of individuals. All of those sacrifices have been completed once and for all, but are not applied to all individuals who will accept Jesus until they come to faith. There were also sacrifices for individual ritual uncleanness which Jesus died for, once and for all. But not all have yet been make clean until they come to faith in Jesus.

So of the many differing sacrifices for sin and uncleanness, Jesus accomplished all that was needed so that people might be saved, but not all who will be saved are saved yet. Yom Kippur is not yet fulfilled until the time when Israel will see Jesus return, and as scripture says: Matthew 23:37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. ³⁸ Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! ³⁹ For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Blessed is He Who come in the Name of the Lord, is the Messianic greeting that the priests were to use to recognize the Messiah, when He entered Jerusalem. When the priests greet the Messiah, all Jewish people will accept their Messiah. That will be the fulfillment of the national redemption, when all of Israel who are living will see Jesus and believe. 

One added comment: While Jesus died for sin, once and for all, that does not mean everyone is saved.  That would be Universalism, which is heretical. The fulfillment is when each person believes on Jesus and is saved.  

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Qnts2 said:

That is not heretical.

Jesus did die for sins, once and for all. But, if you are talking about the Day of Atonement, Yom Kippur, that atonement is a national atonement for the nation of Israel. When the children of Israel, as a nation accept Jesus as the Messiah, then Yom Kippur will be fulfilled. 

There were also daily sacrifices for atonement. Those sacrifices were for the sins of individuals. All of those sacrifices have been completed once and for all, but are not applied to all individuals who will accept Jesus until they come to faith. There were also sacrifices for individual ritual uncleanness which Jesus died for, once and for all. But not all have yet been make clean until they come to faith in Jesus.

So of the many differing sacrifices for sin and uncleanness, Jesus accomplished all that was needed so that people might be saved, but not all who will be saved are saved yet. Yom Kippur is not yet fulfilled until the time when Israel will see Jesus return, and as scripture says: Matthew 23:37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. ³⁸ Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! ³⁹ For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

Blessed is He Who come in the Name of the Lord, is the Messianic greeting that the priests were to use to recognize the Messiah, when He entered Jerusalem. When the priests greet the Messiah, all Jewish people will accept their Messiah. That will be the fulfillment of the national redemption, when all of Israel who are living will see Jesus and believe. 

One added comment: While Jesus died for sin, once and for all, that does not mean everyone is saved.  That would be Universalism, which is heretical. The fulfillment is when each person believes on Jesus and is saved.  

 

There is no redoing of his atonement for national Israel. Israel was blinded to it 2000 years ago, and will accept it when God decides to open their eyes to it.

There is no more sacrifice left for sin.  A denial of the power of his work of atonement. The Apostles were Jews which the first ones did not even realize it was for Gentiles until Cornelius. So This teaching is just a denial of his one time work, and it's power.  TODAY is the day of his salvation. His sacrificial work continues from day one until this world is rolled up.

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

[Qnts2]

1 hour ago, Teditis said:

Do Messianic Jews follow Rabbinic teachings as well hold to Holy Scripture?

Or do they separate the two and understand that Christianity has made strides

forward since Jesus' teachings?

I do not believe Christianity has made strides forward since Jesus teachings. There is no such thing as an improvement on what Jesus taught. The believers back then are the same as the believers today.

Messianic Judaism holds to the authority of Scripture. As Jewish people, we do follow traditions we grew up with but those customs are not Holy.

[Guest shiloh357]

1 hour ago, Teditis said:

That heretical!

Jesus completed the atonement once for all.

Yes he did.  and I have explained this three times already.   I am not talking about the atonement.  I am talking about the prophetic fulfillment of the festival  relative to the second  advent and the day of judgment where those rejected the atonement will be judged.

I have made that clear several times, now.