chat with a catholic

[IreneM]

Kath let me ask this

Do you believe that the Pope has more clout with God then the average person who is a christian.........??

Also I think you missed a question I ask

do you believe that the Catholic church is the only true church and the only way to heaven ....???

In Christ

IreneM

[Katholish]

Irene, I hadn't missed your question, I am just a week behind in answering them.

as to honoring the statues and who they represent  why should i honor Joseph or any other  all honor and worship belongs to the Lord God..........

Well, we can agree that only God is deserving of latria, worship considered in the sense meant here, but I would not consider it a Christian position to claim that no honor should be given to any other person or thing accept for God. Honoring thy father and mother comes to mind right away.

We honor the saints because of their heroic virtue.

One day while going in to mass  I did not use holy water and cross myself  a nun smacked me so hard  I was hurt  physically  and was not allowed to attend mass for 6 months  but was required to attend confession every day of those six months .

I am of course aware that individuals experiences with religious will differ because nuns and priests are themselves different individuals, but in the above incident, I honestly find hard to give the benefit of a doubt.

That a nun physically hit you, while an unfortunate incident, and perhaps one that the nun in question was very much in the wrong, I can believe without problem.

That you were forbidden from going to Mass I find much harder to believe, especially in light of the fact that all Catholics must go to Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation. I have never heard of a person being prohibited from going to Mass by a religious (though if such a command were given, it is my understanding that it would not be binding on the individual in the circumstances given above) in the last 3 centuries.

Also, being made to go to confession everyday for six months is likewise difficult to believe. If such a thing were known to happen, or the prohibition from Mass for that instance, it would be frontpage news on many of the Catholic publications.

Daily confession is an extremely rare practice to begin with, I cannot say that I person know anyone who goes to confession daily.

Also was told repeatedly that the catholic church was the only church and the only way to God and if we ever left the church we would suffer all the damnations of hell..........that was hammered into us from the get go

I attened catholic school from 1st grade to the 7th grade, not once was any outside the church no matter how Holy they seemed going to be in heaven only the catholics who followed the catholic doctrine and did as the Holy Father and the church instructed......... 

The Catholic Church has always taught that "Outside the Church there is no salvation". Now, that phrase can be easily misinterpreted so I will explain exactly what we mean. But first of all, why do we say this phrase to begin with? As Christians, we know that Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him. The Acts of the Apostles has a great quote.

Acts 4:

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said to them: Ye princes of the people and ancients, hear.

9 If we this day are examined concerning the good deed done to the infirm man, by what means he hath been made whole:

10 Be it known to you all and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath raised from the dead, even by him, this man standeth here before you, whole.

11 This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

13 Now seeing the constancy of Peter and of John, understanding that they were illiterate and ignorant men, they wondered: and they knew them that they had been with Jesus.

St. Cyprian of Carthage explains the way in which the Early Church always believed the Church to be necessary for salvation and explains why.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise on the Unity of the Church, 251AD:

6. The spouse of Christ cannot be adulterous; she is uncorrupted and pure. She knows one home; she guards with chaste modesty the sanctity of one couch. She keeps us for God. She appoints the sons whom she has born for the kingdom. Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. If any one could escape who was outside the ark of Noah, then he also may escape who shall be outside of the Church. The Lord warns, saying, "He who is not with me is against me, and he who gathereth not with me scattereth." He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathereth elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, "I and the Father are one;" and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one." And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

The question thus becomes, who according to the Catholic Church, is part of the Church that they may be saved? It is by Faith and Baptism that a person enters into communion with the Church. A validly baptized person is made a child of God and heir to Heaven, and the Sanctifying Grace lost by Adam's sin is restored. Baptism is absolutely necessary to be part of the Church. All of those who are unbaptized are lost. However, there are three kinds of Baptism, of water (the sacrament) but also by blood or desire. Thereby even the Incas before the arrival of Christopher Columbus had a chance to be saved, even if it wasn't a good chance. Just as Christ desires all men to be saved, He has esblished means by which all men have that chance. (You you wanted, I could go into this issue of Baptism more. I know that I am not explaining it much at all and it is important to the discussion.)

There are three bonds with which a person is tied to the Church, and we can us these and apply them to different groups to understand the Church's relationship with them.

1) Unity of Doctrine (Profession of One Faith received from the Apostles)

2) Unity of Worship (The common celebration of Divine worship and the sacraments)

3) Unity of Governance (Apostloic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God's family.)

Only members of the visible Catholic Church under the leadership of Christ and His vicar on earth fully meet all three of these bonds of unity.

The Eastern Orthodox churches share Doctrine and Worship, but not Governance (They have apostolic succession, but do not recognize the primacy of Peter's successor among the bishops). Thus they share an imperfect communion with the Church and lack little in restoring their relationship to full communion.

The Protestant groups mostly share Doctrine, but there are significant differences in some cases, so this is not fully shared. Worship and the sacraments are only partially shared as the Protestants maintained Baptism (the most critical) and marriage among the sacraments, but deined the other 5 (for the most part, there maybe certain exceptions). There is almost no sharing of governance, the only possible thing that might pass as shared authority is the acknowledgement of the Holy Scriptures among all Protestants. Validly baptized Protestants thus share some communion with the Church by nature of Baptism, but it is a vastly imperfect communion.

A member of the Church, or a person sufficiently in communion with her though, while being a requirement, is not the same as being saved. Catholics can go to Hell just like anyone else can. What is essential to the issue is being in the State of Grace when a person dies. This state is entered into at Baptism, but can be lost by any grieviously sinful act (Technically, a Mortal Sin has three requirements, grave matter, full consent, and sufficient knowledge). No one can rightly jugde the state of another's soul, so a precise statement of who is saved and who is not is not possible, but whomever dies in the State of Sanctifying Grace (in communion with God and His Church in other words) is saved.

[serotta]

Daily confession is an extremely rare practice to begin with, I cannot say that I person know anyone who goes to confession daily.

I know countless, and I am one who goes daily.

I get on my knees and ask God's forgiveness daily, for He alone has the power to forgive my sins.

[Katholish]

Irene,

OCTOBRI MENSE

4. ...With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.[6] Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother. ...

6. ... Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. "Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son."[7]

I find the above statement so  demeaning to me as a chrisitan  I need not go to Mary for the Lord to hear my prayers  or to have them accepted by Him...............

I can go to Christ  without going threw mary  I can boldly  go before the Throne of God  as a child of the Living God..............

I was not familiar with this document before you brought it up, but to give some context, it was written in 1891 by Pope Leo XIII on the subject of the Rosary. Paragraph 4 seems to have been slightly taken out of context, and I think it might be helpful to supply what came immediately before the text that you quoted.

4. But since the salvation of our race was accomplished by the mystery of the Cross, and since the Church, dispenser of that salvation after the triumph of Christ, was founded upon earth and instituted, Providence established a new order for a new people. The consideration of the Divine counsels is united to the great sentiment of religion. The Eternal Son of God, about to take upon Him our nature for the saving and ennobling of man, and about to consummate thus a mystical union between Himself and all mankind, did not accomplish His design without adding there the free consent of the elect Mother, who represented in some sort all human kind, according to the illustrious and just opinion of St. Thomas, who says that the Annunciation was effected with the consent of the Virgin standing in the place of humanity.[5] With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ.[6] Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother. How great are the goodness and mercy revealed in this design of God! What a correspondence with the frailty of man! We believe in the infinite goodness of the Most High, and we rejoice in it; we believe also in His justice and we fear it. We adore the beloved Savior, lavish of His blood and of His life; we dread the inexorable Judge.

Thus the context is Mary's participation in the Divine Plan, that she gave her consent for the Incarnation to occur in her own body, etc.

Paragraph 6 likewise benefits from seeing the whole paragraph.

6. This storm of evils, in the midst of which the Church struggles so strenuously, reveals to all her pious children the holy duty whereto they are bound to pray to God with instance, and the manner in which they may give to their prayers the greater power. Faithful to the religious example of our fathers, let us have recourse to Mary, our holy Sovereign. Let us entreat, let us beseech, with one heart, Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, our Mother. "Show thyself to be a mother; cause our prayers to be accepted by Him Who, born for us, consented to be thy Son."[7]

The context here is praying to God, but doing so in a "manner in which they may give to their prayers the greater power", namely the power of being joined with the prayers of Christ's own mother. This passage does not indicate that all prayers must be said "though" Mary though.

It is interesting that you bring up this document though, because I do think that the first part of paragraph 4 contributes much to the dicussion introducing that manner in which Mary's role at the Announciation was so important, that she essentially represented all humanity in giving her consent, just as Eve represented all humanity in giving her consent to sin.

Edited March 16, 2005 by Katholish

[Katholish]

Daily confession is an extremely rare practice to begin with, I cannot say that I person know anyone who goes to confession daily.

I know countless, and I am one who goes daily.

I get on my knees and ask God's forgiveness daily, for He alone has the power to forgive my sins.

I will address this out of turn to quickly clarify my meaning. I was referring to sacramental Confession, properly called the sacrament of Penence.

I myself say an act of Contrition daily, which is more akin to what you mean. In that sense, than yes, the practice is very common in the Catholic Church and encouraged on a daily basis. However, sacramental confession is a slightly different, though related, matter.

I assumed that Irene was referring to sacramental confession.

[Katholish]

27  And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

28  But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Kath  does this verse negate the worship of Mary???

My simple answer would be no.

Luke also writes:

Luke 1:

41 And it came to pass that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.

42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mary is blessed in the manner that Christ refers to in Luke 11, she heard the Word of God and kept it. Christ hear makes that point that mere human relationships do not reflect blessedness in their own right. Just because a person was a cousin or uncle to Christ does not mean that they are going to have an easier time getting into Heaven. If Mary had sinned, she could have been damned like anyone else.

[Katholish]

I can understand why the books of mac.  was left out of the final  bible  .

Kath  it seems to me that alot of catholic doctrine is from that book  but not in the bible  and the catholics hold that  as high as the bible.

If  you as a catholic  are to follow all doctrine of the church  to be a good catholic  do you  believe that the catholic church is the only one that offers true salvation  as is doctrine .  The  Pope has said this so wonder if you feel the same.............

Also  whe we look at our differences  there seems to be a great differnce in worship and in beliefs  so how can we come together  and still hold  to our beliefs.????

Perhaps you are unaware of the difference in biblical canons. The book of Second Maccabees is in the Bible. Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox have slightly different canons for the Old Testament. This is a subject that I am fairly familiar with, and has such I can go into it at length if you would like, but sufficieth for now to say that the Old Testament that the Apostles used (the Septuagint translation) included the Second Book of Maccabees, and the very first printed Bible (the Gutenberg Bible) included it as completely canonical. It wasn't until after the destruction of Jerusalem that the Jews wrote it out of their biblical canon, and it wasn't until the Reformation that Luther and Protestants refused to included it, but Second Maccabees has been regarded as inspired Scripture since the beginning of the Church and nearly unanimously after the settlement of the canon around the end of the 4th Century.

This difference in canons does lead to some of the differences between Catholics and Protestants, but generally it is a symptom of those differences and not the cause. Sola Scriptura is the cause.

Regarding the question of salvation in the Church, I just made a big post on it before writing this one.

[IreneM]

kath it happened

I was told I was unworthy to attend mass until I had sufficently repented, and the confession every day was so the nun said to keep track of my repentence...

I grew up in a small town one catholic church and everyone knew everyone so what the nuns and the priest said was gospel you did not argue with them and what did I know I was a kid in the real sense of the word so trust me it did happen............

Can we find one common ground in our different beliefs???????

Can we unit on anything at all??

If we can not then how can I call any catholic brother or sister and how can I fellowship with them ???

In Christ

IreneM

[IreneM]

I guess this chat is over and for that i can only wonder

Can we fellowship with some one who differs so much from us.

Is unity at the cost of Doctrine biblical

Even the Salvation message is different

how ??

Well for one we beleive that Jesus paid it All on the Cross

catholics do not (pergator)

we can go to the Lord God ourselves

catholices believe we need help of others who died before as they have more clout with God

We believe that We have no mediator between God and man

Catholics beleive we need them

etc

I find it hard to fellowship with such vast differences between us...........

I thought we could find some common ground but we did not and that is sad.........

Unity at the cost of doctrine ????

no I think not.......

In Christ

IreneM

[Fr Chuck]

I am a Orthodox priest, who has studed both eastern and western traditons and practice.

If you would like to exchange ideas, view points and the such, I would be glad to.

I prefer, not to on public boards, but would exchange emails if you would like

Fr_Chuck@hotmail.com