more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[Omegaman 3.0]

6 hours ago, hmbld said:

es, we all deserve Hell, though I am having trouble accepting the idea that God chooses to send people to Hell.  My understanding is hell was created due to God's Holiness, sin must be dealt with.  Not choosing to send, as you say, but has to do with His very character.  

Why do you say some can't accept God's sovereignty if they believe He gives us a choice to choose?  

If no one can really choose, as that would mean we have a part in salvation(which is only a response, not a controlling factor), if we are truly picked and rejected by God, than why evangelize?  They are already chosen, no need?

Good questions and issues hmbld!

It is difficult, well, impossible, to answer why God chose to do anything, unless He actually tells us why. I am okay that He is mum on some things, because I fully embrace His sovereignty, I am fine with it, I understand "mind your on business, you have enough to do without worrying about what is mine to do".

Since I do not know answers to some things you are wondering about, I will let you in on my wild speculations. 

I do not think that God chooses to send people to Hell,

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

but clearly that is what he does with some.

How I have ignorantly thought of it is like this (please note this is not something well thought out, I have not tried to make a point of this, it is not provable, not even a theory, just an outline of how things could be:

God created stuff, I do not know why. Some of the stuff, he made living, and the living he made it two categories. One category, was spiritual and eternal, the other was meant only to exist in time. Of the spiritual ones, some were made to live on the earth (mankind), the other were meant to live in heaven (angelic beings).

Those creatures which had the spiritual nature, were made to live eternally. 

Evil was found in one of the spirit beings, Satan, and he seduced others in His rebelion against God. Satan also, visited mankind, and seduced them into rebellion also.

God, is only good, and His eternal abode, is also reserved for only good things. However, not everything was good. It was created good, but free will, allowed that to change. So in the final state, all things not good, will be separated from all things good. God will, at the end of time as we know it, remove all things bad, separate them like he separated light from dark, in the beginning. That part of eternity, is a place where nothing good is. Those who are not good, will be there, and only the good, will be among the good. This is Heaven and Hell, for lack of more technical jargon. When people die, or are at the endof their natural lives, they are separated to, those who are good, will be with God, those who are less that good, will be separated from God, they will be, where no good is. If something is not good, God will have to restore it's goodness for it to have a place with Him.

All people are sinners, I know I do not need to explain that or prove that, to those reading this thread. So, if nothing changes, all people go where they deserve, into eternity, separated from God. God does not choose them specifically to Hell, they go to Hell, because they are sinners, and because they are sinners, they are separated from God.

This is already the case, we ARE separated from God, we do not have that access and fellowship that Adam and Eve had in the garden, before the fall of mankind. Once mankind chose that path,  used their free will to rebel against God, they chose separation, God warned Adam that that would happen, the warning was, when you eat of the fruit of that tree, you will surely die. Death, is a word that describes separation, separation from God, is a kind of spiritual death. The soul separated from the body, is a physical death, and the soul separated from God in eternity, the bible calls the second death.

So, this is how people end up in Hell, we chose to rebel against God, or if you prefer, Adam chose that as a representative of us, doing what we would have done in his place, and we inherit from him that nature he took on, a fallen nature, a Hell bound destiny. God did not choose people to Hell, the Bible as far as I know, nowhere makes a claim like that.

Now, for reasons that the Bible does not disclose, God did choose something. He chose to rescue some, from their destiny due to them for their sin. He chose a people for Himself, to love in eternity, to have as a possession, to have perfect fellowship with in eternity. His method, was to have the fine paid, a ransom paid, to purchase people out of Hell. That is what Calvinists refer to as Election. Of course in TULIP, it is the U, unconditional election. All that means is God chooses to give some people eternal life, without looking for anything good in them as a condition for loving and saving them.

Now for reasons also not explained that I know of, there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. I do not have to understand that, I just accept that, because I believe the Bible. We see this hinted at, when in the garden, Adam and Eve sinned. They became aware of their sin, and for good reason, were now afraid of God. I think that in that story, their nakedness represents their sin, they were now exposed, to the dangers of the consequences of their actions. So, being humans, we understand this part experiencially, we try to cover our sins, hide them. Adam and Eve did this by making garments out of plants. I would say that this is symbolic of mankind, attempting to cover sins with his own work. Works, cannot save us.

So, what happens next? God makes them coverings of animal skins. He we have the shedding of blood, for the remission of sin, but notice it is not man that does this, it is a work of God. I think this pictures the animal sacrifices that were to come, in the lives of the Jews, which are themselves, a picture of the one sacrifice, the once for all time sacrifice, of Jesus dieing on the cross for us.

The animal sacrifices where just shadow of the reality to come. A man (Adam) got us into this mess, a man (jesus), the last Adam would rescue us. 1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Speaking of Election I kind of got off track here, I wanted to mention a few verses:

Acts 13:48 describes salvation in these words:
“As many as have been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Notice that it does not say that those who believed were then saved, it indicates that those who were already appointed to eternal life, came to believe.

Ephesians 1:4–6 states:

God “chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”

These do not strike me as some vague, mysterious message in need of special decryption, but some do not seem to be able to read them, and take then for what they say.

You asked:

Why do you say some can't accept God's sovereignty if they believe He gives us a choice to choose?  

What I say is, that if they really accept God's sovereignty, they will not have trouble accepting that it is 100% God, and zero percent us. If He is soveriegn, He can do as He see fit, and He does not need our permission, does not need to offer us a choice.

Let's see! "Gee God, it is not fair that you chose me get Salvation, I reject your right to do that, and I would rather you gave me the chance to choose to go to Hell."

Personally, I think I like God's idea better.

Then you asked:

"If no one can really choose, as that would mean we have a part in salvation (which is only a response, not a controlling factor), if we are truly picked and rejected by God, than why evangelize?  They are already chosen, no need?

That is a thought that is expressed by those who are referred to as Hyper-Calvinists. Some not only exist, but that thinking actually exists in some denominations. They go so far as to intentionally not have a missionary program.

Certainly, God can save people if he wants to without evangelists. Again though, that is rejecting God's sovereignty. It is God's sovereign choice, that his people:

 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We can do like the pot, and challenge the potter, and say, I do not want to evangelize. Is that what an obedient Christian does, tell God to go do it Himself, what He has appointed us to do?

Many Christians are very familiar with this verse:

 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Personally, I think that where it says "it is the gift of God", the "it" there is referring to the package of salvation, grace and faith. I came to have that understanding, back in the late 80s or early 90's, about a quarter century before I became a Calvinist, so I had no motivation to try to make the Bible say that, to fit my preconceptions. I was informed that that idea, is consistent  with the Greek grammar there, but I am not proficient enough in Greek, to me able to make that case myself.

We like that verse, many memorize it and can quote it, we like the part about grace. We might even like that it frees us from the responsibility of works. Maybe that is why when I ask people, what does the next verse say, they cannot answer:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Oooohhhh! than changes it just a little!

In any case, that is why we evangelize, because God told us to, and because He created us for doing good works.

For these reasons, Hyper-Calvinists are just plain wrong, etiher that, or the Bible is.

Let's look at how the apostle Paul says it all works:

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

      14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

Evangelism then, is the method that God chose, those who refuse to do so, are being disobedient to God, and demonstrating that the do not care for their neighbor, and are willing that they can go to Hell, I would not want to be a Hyper-Calvinist on judgement day.

While looking up the above passage in Romans 10, I noticed something that I do not recall noticing before, that is relevant in this topic:

20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
            “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
            I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

I think I have answered your questions, with reasonable and scriptural responses. You can of course, disagree with me and my understandings, but I hope you will look at the scriptures I posted, and ask yourself: "do they say and mean and indicate, what Omegaman is thinking they do?" I wish you God's enlightenment, as you seek to understand what it is, that He would have you believe.

Thank you for those excellent questions. It is a lot of work for me to write answers the way I do, but the challenge to try to communicate, is always welcome, pleasurable, and a learning experience for me as well. I hope someone, learned something from this, that they did not know or understand before, and if I am wrong, may God protect them from my ignorance.

[angels4u]

8 hours ago, Ezra said:

Every Christian must decide sooner or later whether either Calvinism or Arminianism is true or false, and that must be in the light Scripture interpreted correctly.  Calvinists call their beliefs "The Doctrines of Grace" but in fact they should be called "The Doctrines of Sovereignty", since the primary emphasis is the sovereignty of God. But the grace of God is succinctly expressed in John 3:16, which itself overturns TULIP:

For God so loved = the focus is the love, mercy, and grace of God, not the sovereignty of God.

The world = the world of humanity = every human being, not just the so-called elect. [DENIED BY TULIP]

That He gave = salvation if entirely from God, and of God, not of works or merit or anything manmade

His only begotten Son = salvation is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, not sacraments or anything else

That whosoever = anyone and everyone without exception, not just the so-called elect [DENIED BY TULIP]

Believeth in Him = salvation is by grace through faith alone

Should not perish = none should go to Hell (the Lake of Fire)

But have everlasting life = eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes, not just to the so-called elect.

 

This sums is up so very well,thank you for posting this Ezra !

That's how I see understand the Bible too 

[enoob57]

9 hours ago, Ezra said:

Every Christian must decide sooner or later whether either Calvinism or Arminianism is true or false, and that must be in the light Scripture interpreted correctly.  Calvinists call their beliefs "The Doctrines of Grace" but in fact they should be called "The Doctrines of Sovereignty", since the primary emphasis is the sovereignty of God. But the grace of God is succinctly expressed in John 3:16, which itself overturns TULIP:

For God so loved = the focus is the love, mercy, and grace of God, not the sovereignty of God.

The world = the world of humanity = every human being, not just the so-called elect. [DENIED BY TULIP]

That He gave = salvation if entirely from God, and of God, not of works or merit or anything manmade

His only begotten Son = salvation is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, not sacraments or anything else

That whosoever = anyone and everyone without exception, not just the so-called elect [DENIED BY TULIP]

Believeth in Him = salvation is by grace through faith alone

Should not perish = none should go to Hell (the Lake of Fire)

But have everlasting life = eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes, not just to the so-called elect.

 

16 minutes ago, angels4u said:

This sums is up so very well,thank you for posting this Ezra !

That's how I see understand the Bible too 

I also am in your ranks and unlike the Calvinists I do not have to alter the simple meaning of one word in the Bible fit my stance... Love, Steven 

[enoob57]

The major flaw in Calvinism is making sin a creation of God and God in necessity using it to accomplish His Will...
God has clearly and distinctly stated His hatred toward it and that it has absolutely no part in Him! Period! Anything
stating anything else is in opposition to God and His Word....

Eph 4:27

27 Neither give place to the devil.
KJV
Simple obedience to God in His Word is literally give no place... for satan is out of the created order from which He
was made and hell was designed for him and his followers and it has no place of God except His Wrath in it...
Love, Steven

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Good questions and issues hmbld!

It is difficult, well, impossible, to answer why God chose to do anything, unless He actually tells us why. I am okay that He is mum on some things, because I fully embrace His sovereignty, I am fine with it, I understand "mind your on business, you have enough to do without worrying about what is mine to do".

Since I do not know answers to some things you are wondering about, I will let you in on my wild speculations. 

I do not think that God chooses to send people to Hell,

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

but clearly that is what he does with some.

How I have ignorantly thought of it is like this (please note this is not something well thought out, I have not tried to make a point of this, it is not provable, not even a theory, just an outline of how things could be:

God created stuff, I do not know why. Some of the stuff, he made living, and the living he made it two categories. One category, was spiritual and eternal, the other was meant only to exist in time. Of the spiritual ones, some were made to live on the earth (mankind), the other were meant to live in heaven (angelic beings).

Those creatures which had the spiritual nature, were made to live eternally. 

Evil was found in one of the spirit beings, Satan, and he seduced others in His rebelion against God. Satan also, visited mankind, and seduced them into rebellion also.

God, is only good, and His eternal abode, is also reserved for only good things. However, not everything was good. It was created good, but free will, allowed that to change. So in the final state, all things not good, will be separated from all things good. God will, at the end of time as we know it, remove all things bad, separate them like he separated light from dark, in the beginning. That part of eternity, is a place where nothing good is. Those who are not good, will be there, and only the good, will be among the good. This is Heaven and Hell, for lack of more technical jargon. When people die, or are at the endof their natural lives, they are separated to, those who are good, will be with God, those who are less that good, will be separated from God, they will be, where no good is. If something is not good, God will have to restore it's goodness for it to have a place with Him.

All people are sinners, I know I do not need to explain that or prove that, to those reading this thread. So, if nothing changes, all people go where they deserve, into eternity, separated from God. God does not choose them specifically to Hell, they go to Hell, because they are sinners, and because they are sinners, they are separated from God.

This is already the case, we ARE separated from God, we do not have that access and fellowship that Adam and Eve had in the garden, before the fall of mankind. Once mankind chose that path,  used their free will to rebel against God, they chose separation, God warned Adam that that would happen, the warning was, when you eat of the fruit of that tree, you will surely die. Death, is a word that describes separation, separation from God, is a kind of spiritual death. The soul separated from the body, is a physical death, and the soul separated from God in eternity, the bible calls the second death.

So, this is how people end up in Hell, we chose to rebel against God, or if you prefer, Adam chose that as a representative of us, doing what we would have done in his place, and we inherit from him that nature he took on, a fallen nature, a Hell bound destiny. God did not choose people to Hell, the Bible as far as I know, nowhere makes a claim like that.

Now, for reasons that the Bible does not disclose, God did choose something. He chose to rescue some, from their destiny due to them for their sin. He chose a people for Himself, to love in eternity, to have as a possession, to have perfect fellowship with in eternity. His method, was to have the fine paid, a ransom paid, to purchase people out of Hell. That is what Calvinists refer to as Election. Of course in TULIP, it is the U, unconditional election. All that means is God chooses to give some people eternal life, without looking for anything good in them as a condition for loving and saving them.

Now for reasons also not explained that I know of, there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. I do not have to understand that, I just accept that, because I believe the Bible. We see this hinted at, when in the garden, Adam and Eve sinned. They became aware of their sin, and for good reason, were now afraid of God. I think that in that story, their nakedness represents their sin, they were now exposed, to the dangers of the consequences of their actions. So, being humans, we understand this part experiencially, we try to cover our sins, hide them. Adam and Eve did this by making garments out of plants. I would say that this is symbolic of mankind, attempting to cover sins with his own work. Works, cannot save us.

So, what happens next? God makes them coverings of animal skins. He we have the shedding of blood, for the remission of sin, but notice it is not man that does this, it is a work of God. I think this pictures the animal sacrifices that were to come, in the lives of the Jews, which are themselves, a picture of the one sacrifice, the once for all time sacrifice, of Jesus dieing on the cross for us.

The animal sacrifices where just shadow of the reality to come. A man (Adam) got us into this mess, a man (jesus), the last Adam would rescue us. 1 Cor 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Speaking of Election I kind of got off track here, I wanted to mention a few verses:

Acts 13:48 describes salvation in these words:
“As many as have been appointed to eternal life believed.”

Notice that it does not say that those who believed were then saved, it indicates that those who were already appointed to eternal life, came to believe.

Ephesians 1:4–6 states:

God “chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.”

These do not strike me as some vague, mysterious message in need of special decryption, but some do not seem to be able to read them, and take then for what they say.

You asked:

Why do you say some can't accept God's sovereignty if they believe He gives us a choice to choose?  

What I say is, that if they really accept God's sovereignty, they will not have trouble accepting that it is 100% God, and zero percent us. If He is soveriegn, He can do as He see fit, and He does not need our permission, does not need to offer us a choice.

Let's see! "Gee God, it is not fair that you chose me get Salvation, I reject your right to do that, and I would rather you gave me the chance to choose to go to Hell."

Personally, I think I like God's idea better.

Then you asked:

"If no one can really choose, as that would mean we have a part in salvation (which is only a response, not a controlling factor), if we are truly picked and rejected by God, than why evangelize?  They are already chosen, no need?

That is a thought that is expressed by those who are referred to as Hyper-Calvinists. Some not only exist, but that thinking actually exists in some denominations. They go so far as to intentionally not have a missionary program.

Certainly, God can save people if he wants to without evangelists. Again though, that is rejecting God's sovereignty. It is God's sovereign choice, that his people:

 19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We can do like the pot, and challenge the potter, and say, I do not want to evangelize. Is that what an obedient Christian does, tell God to go do it Himself, what He has appointed us to do?

Many Christians are very familiar with this verse:

 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Personally, I think that where it says "it is the gift of God", the "it" there is referring to the package of salvation, grace and faith. I came to have that understanding, back in the late 80s or early 90's, about a quarter century before I became a Calvinist, so I had no motivation to try to make the Bible say that, to fit my preconceptions. I was informed that that idea, is consistent  with the Greek grammar there, but I am not proficient enough in Greek, to me able to make that case myself.

We like that verse, many memorize it and can quote it, we like the part about grace. We might even like that it frees us from the responsibility of works. Maybe that is why when I ask people, what does the next verse say, they cannot answer:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Oooohhhh! than changes it just a little!

In any case, that is why we evangelize, because God told us to, and because He created us for doing good works.

For these reasons, Hyper-Calvinists are just plain wrong, etiher that, or the Bible is.

Let's look at how the apostle Paul says it all works:

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

      14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

Evangelism then, is the method that God chose, those who refuse to do so, are being disobedient to God, and demonstrating that the do not care for their neighbor, and are willing that they can go to Hell, I would not want to be a Hyper-Calvinist on judgement day.

While looking up the above passage in Romans 10, I noticed something that I do not recall noticing before, that is relevant in this topic:

20 And Isaiah is very bold and says,
            “I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME,
            I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME.”

I think I have answered your questions, with reasonable and scriptural responses. You can of course, disagree with me and my understandings, but I hope you will look at the scriptures I posted, and ask yourself: "do they say and mean and indicate, what Omegaman is thinking they do?" I wish you God's enlightenment, as you seek to understand what it is, that He would have you believe.

Thank you for those excellent questions. It is a lot of work for me to write answers the way I do, but the challenge to try to communicate, is always welcome, pleasurable, and a learning experience for me as well. I hope someone, learned something from this, that they did not know or understand before, and if I am wrong, may God protect them from my ignorance.

This was a very good read Oman. Somethings to really think upon. I still do not know where I stand on this issue, but these types of explanations sure help with our pondering of these things. Thank you

[kwikphilly]

Quote

11 hours ago, Ezra said:

Every Christian must decide sooner or later whether either Calvinism or Arminianism is true or false, and that must be in the light Scripture interpreted correctly.  Calvinists call their beliefs "The Doctrines of Grace" but in fact they should be called "The Doctrines of Sovereignty", since the primary emphasis is the sovereignty of God. But the grace of God is succinctly expressed in John 3:16, which itself overturns TULIP:

For God so loved = the focus is the love, mercy, and grace of God, not the sovereignty of God.

The world = the world of humanity = every human being, not just the so-called elect. [DENIED BY TULIP]

That He gave = salvation if entirely from God, and of God, not of works or merit or anything manmade

His only begotten Son = salvation is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, not sacraments or anything else

That whosoever = anyone and everyone without exception, not just the so-called elect [DENIED BY TULIP]

Believeth in Him = salvation is by grace through faith alone

Should not perish = none should go to Hell (the Lake of Fire)

But have everlasting life = eternal life is God's gift to the sinner who repents and believes, not just to the so-called elect.

 

I believe you are saying neither is accurate in itself(Calvinism & Arminianism),,,,,,,,so it is not a matter of choosing one or the other,correct?,,,,,,,for me personally I cannot fit into either "category" & I would not think I or anyone should have to,,,,,,,,your Biblical ,bold print with the definition of each is what every Christian should embrace,not either Doctrine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they are both "false",,,,,,,,Amen Ezra,,,,,,,beautifully outlined                                       Praise Jesus

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

I believe you are saying neither is accurate in itself(Calvinism & Arminianism),,,,,,,,so it is not a matter of choosing one or the other,correct?,,,,,,,for me personally I cannot fit into either "category" & I would not think I or anyone should have to,,,,,,,,your Biblical ,bold print with the definition of each is what every Christian should embrace,not either Doctrine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they are both "false",,,,,,,,Amen Ezra,,,,,,,beautifully outlined                                       Praise Jesus

 

Maybe I missed something? But Ezra said this in response to tulip.........

But the grace of God is succinctly expressed in John 3:16, which itself overturns TULIP:

He even bolded overturns Tulip?

He began his response...

Every Christian must decide sooner or later whether either Calvinism or Arminianism is true or false.

Blessings

Joline

[kwikphilly]

Thank you Joline but I really can read,,,,,,,,,,my response was/is in agreement with Brother Ezra & simply commenting ,I asked him because at the start of this Thread he & I both do not consider ourselves "either",,,,,,,,

I am not quite sure why you feel it is no necessary to quote my responses to folks so often in many discussions to question or rebuttal whatever I may comment? Did you miss something,I guess that depends on what it is you are looking for?                     I've really nothing more to contribute to this Thread,it was quite informative & interesting

[angels4u]

Omega, I can't find back where you said that God is not always fair?

I looked but couldn't find it back, was it maybe deleted?

More or less it's like this, do you also believe people are predestined for hell?

1 Tim.2:4

…3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,…

[kwikphilly]

Not meaning to go Off Topic Sis but I saw your question to Mega & thought I might add that I too,do not believe(by our reasoning) that God is FAIR,I know He is JUST,,,,,,,,

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The main point is that God doesn’t operate on the merit system as we think he should. God deals with us according to His free grace. As Paul explains, “For it is by his grace you are saved [delivered from God’s judgment], through trusting him; it is not your own doing. It is God’s gift, not a reward for work done. There is nothing for anyone to boast of” (Ephesians 2:8, 9; New English Bible).

                                                          excerpt from https://bible.org/article/why-god-not-fair

If we read the 2a0th Chapter of Matthew we can see that God is not "fair" by our standards but in fact He is JUST        Love<kwik