more indept study of Armenian and Calvinist

[enoob57]

Nowhere in the Bible does God define His use of foreknowledge... period  

[angels4u]

Does God desires all people to be saved?

 

Jesus died for everyone.

• John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
• John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
• John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
• 1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
• 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
• 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

[hmbld]

47 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Nowhere in the Bible does God define His use of foreknowledge... period  

This is something I wish to ponder on for a while, thanks! 

But, I just read this from Got Questions:

Here is an opposing argument to theological fatalism: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, He is also infallible. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will mow the lawn, then you will freely choose to do so, not out of obligation or lack of choice. You still have free will to mow the lawn or not mow it; God merely knows your choice before you make it. You are not obliged to mow the lawn tomorrow any more than you are to play tennis or bake a cake. If you were going to change your mind, God would have seen that also, so you still have free will in all matters. Also, you will still make the same choices (exercising your free will), even if God chose not to see the future. God’s passive foreknowledge of the future does not alter your free will.
 

Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen.” Christians reject fatalism and godless determinism. Rather, they understand that a wise, holy, good, and sovereign God has control of every detail of life (Matthew 10:29–30). The man who does not really want God to have this control or who despises the truth of God’s sovereignty does not love God and does not want God in his life. But God is sovereign, and He cannot deny Himself.

 

Now, these two paragraphs were on the same page, the first i completely agree with, and the second seems to be agreeing with what Mega is saying?   Matthew 10:29-30 is offered as God controls every detail.  Now, we all offer opinions, yet I can't figure out if this is even something we can know.  I have been quite content not needing to know the final word on free will, predestination, God's foreknowledge, etc., but when people ask questions who don't think God has chosen them, they don't like the standard I don't know answer.  

Got Questions:  Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

If grace is resistible, then we are prideful in thinking of our importance?  I think at times I am not supposed to have all the "correct" answers, and be content to talk with people, point to what scripture says, and even allow that I don't know.  So many people seem to think they know all these things for sure, when they are debated, it seems that God's knowledge He shares in scripture is so far above what any of us can understand.  So though I admit I don't understand all this, I enjoy the interaction with all of you.  Maybe that is more important than knowing all the answers?

 

[angels4u]

5 minutes ago, hmbld said:

This is something I wish to ponder on for a while, thanks! 

But, I just read this from Got Questions:

Here is an opposing argument to theological fatalism: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, He is also infallible. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will mow the lawn, then you will freely choose to do so, not out of obligation or lack of choice. You still have free will to mow the lawn or not mow it; God merely knows your choice before you make it. You are not obliged to mow the lawn tomorrow any more than you are to play tennis or bake a cake. If you were going to change your mind, God would have seen that also, so you still have free will in all matters. Also, you will still make the same choices (exercising your free will), even if God chose not to see the future. God’s passive foreknowledge of the future does not alter your free will.
 

Serious students of the Bible do not believe that things “just happen.” Christians reject fatalism and godless determinism. Rather, they understand that a wise, holy, good, and sovereign God has control of every detail of life (Matthew 10:29–30). The man who does not really want God to have this control or who despises the truth of God’s sovereignty does not love God and does not want God in his life. But God is sovereign, and He cannot deny Himself.

 

Now, these two paragraphs were on the same page, the first i completely agree with, and the second seems to be agreeing with what Mega is saying?   Matthew 10:29-30 is offered as God controls every detail.  Now, we all offer opinions, yet I can't figure out if this is even something we can know.  I have been quite content not needing to know the final word on free will, predestination, God's foreknowledge, etc., but when people ask questions who don't think God has chosen them, they don't like the standard I don't know answer.  

Got Questions:  Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

If grace is resistible, then we are prideful in thinking of our importance?  I think at times I am not supposed to have all the "correct" answers, and be content to talk with people, point to what scripture says, and even allow that I don't know.  So many people seem to think they know all these things for sure, when they are debated, it seems that God's knowledge He shares in scripture is so far above what any of us can understand.  So though I admit I don't understand all this, I enjoy the interaction with all of you.  Maybe that is more important than knowing all the answers?

 

 

Amen, God knows everything our yesterdays,present and future,He also knows who will accept the Gospel message and who  will not .

But He wants all men to be saved because He is a fair God, if we have children would it be fair to give one more then the other?  Not comparable with what Jesus did when He died on the cross.

If two people come to Jesus with the same question as Nicodemus did ,will God says " Yes" I choose you and to the other " No"  I did not send my Son to die to the cross for your sins?

 

I just cannot understand how people can think they're specially chosen by God and their neighbor has no chance to go to heaven because they were not chosen?

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, angels4u said:

Does God desires all people to be saved?

 

Jesus died for everyone.

• John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
• John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
• John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
• 1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
• 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
• 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

Yeah, then there is this. So, maybe not what I said. Thanks angels. Good point.

[angels4u]

6 minutes ago, Joline said:

Yeah, then there is this. So, maybe not what I said. Thanks angels. Good point.

Joline,remember Jesus preaching to the crowds about the Kingdom of heaven?

He didn't preach to certain people is was for ALL to hear  He had a message to all who would come~~

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Joline,remember Jesus preaching to the crowds about the Kingdom of heaven?

He didn't preach to certain people is was for ALL to hear  He had a message to all who would come~~

This one just made me think about the Israelites.

Mt 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 

Mt 13:15  For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

[angels4u]

15 minutes ago, Joline said:

This one just made me think about the Israelites.

Mt 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
 

Mt 13:15  For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

 

 

 There are tons of people walking around with their  eyes and ears closed but they will be opened at some point in the future, but then it might be too late.

Many people in the O.T. are saved by faith but the Israelites and Gentiles both need Jesus to take their veil of unbelieve away,can we blame God for not seeing and hearing? "No" the Bible says that only if they look at nature they will see there is a God.

Many people do want to do what they think is right in their eyes instead of looking up to Jesus, remember Moses and the snake,all who looked at the snake got better, the same with Jesus ,all who asked Him to come in their life will have Salvation.

That's why God gave us the free will, He did not make us robots.

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, angels4u said:

 There are tons of people walking around with their  eyes and ears closed but they will be opened at some point in the future, but then it might be too late.

Many people in the O.T. are saved by faith but the Israelites and Gentiles both need Jesus to take their veil of unbelieve away,can we blame God for not seeing and hearing? "No" the Bible says that only if they look at nature they will see there is a God.

Many people do want to do what they think is right in their eyes instead of looking up to Jesus, remember Moses and the snake,all who looked at the snake got better, the same with Jesus ,all who asked Him to come in their life will have Salvation.

That's why Gd gave us the free will, He did not make us robots.

 

Well, angels I have a little different view though. And I really do not know if it has any bearing on this conversation.

Salvation can be in various forms.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. The law contains prophesies concerning Israel, as well as Gentiles. Both are heading for wrath, but at different times.

Israel is first, and then the Gentiles as it relates to how Gentiles treated her during this time.

Therefore God sent John to the people to flee the wrath which was coming. I do think this might be what those verses speak of, not eternal salvation. As Israel has already had the Gospel preached to them, when he called them out of Egypt. And many today still walk by faith in that. So they have faith.

Gentiles however needed the Gospel to be saved, because we had not been called yet to our inheritance. So faith also came to the nations at that time. We in Christ will be saved from God's wrath when the time comes for it to be upon the nations. Just like certain Israelites in Christ were saved from God's wrath. But just like Israel believed the Gospel, we of the nations do as well, that is eternal.

 

[angels4u]

27 minutes ago, Joline said:

Well, angels I have a little different view though. And I really do not know if it has any bearing on this conversation.

Salvation can be in various forms.

Jesus came to fulfil the law. The law contains prophesies concerning Israel, as well as Gentiles. Both are heading for wrath, but at different times.

Israel is first, and then the Gentiles as it relates to how Gentiles treated her during this time.

Therefore God sent John to the people to flee the wrath which was coming. I do think this might be what those verses speak of, not eternal salvation. As Israel has already had the Gospel preached to them, when he called them out of Egypt. And many today still walk by faith in that. So they have faith.

Gentiles however needed the Gospel to be saved, because we had not been called yet to our inheritance. So faith also came to the nations at that time. We in Christ will be saved from God's wrath when the time comes for it to be upon the nations. Just like certain Israelites in Christ were saved from God's wrath. But just like Israel believed the Gospel, we of the nations do as well, that is eternal.

 

5

 

You said:

"Well, angels I have a little different view though. And I really do not know if it has any bearing on this conversation."

please share~~

Salvation can come in different forms?

Is Jesus not the only way to heaven?

John warned about the coming wrath so that people could turn from their sin and accept Jesus so they would be free from Gods wrath which is to come, Jesus suffered for you and me and paid that high price.

You said:

Gentiles however needed the Gospel to be saved, because we had not been called yet to our inheritance.

Galatians 4:4-7But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" 

I'm not really seeing where you believe is different?