A fence-sitter finally jumps off

[ENOCH2010]

41 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Elect are already in Heaven when we return with Jesus.

The elect that are with Jesus have been dying for 2000 years to get there. They aren't raptured there like the pre-trib doctrine teaches.

[OakWood]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The facts are that Jesus clearly stated the time of the Gentiles, inferring they had a set time. Paul stated they are beloved for the Fathers sake.  Israel sinned against God, and God through Daniel decree a 70 week judgment against them. The Church is saved by Jesus, the Jew refuses to believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Tribulation is designed to get Israel to call upon their God in a time of great trouble/need again. Thats why its called Jacobs trouble. It has nothing to do with one group being better than the other or different. One group, Gentiles believe on God, unless they love Satan and his ways of course, and the other group has been blinded by their sins, they can not see that Jesus is the Messiah, the 70 Week prophecy can not be fulfilled until Israel knows Jesus is their Messiah. It has nothing to do with the Jew or Gentile being different, one believes, the other doesn't. Our going through the tribulation would change nothing, we are saved by faith, through grace, Israel going through the tribulation is designed to get them to repent and call upon their God again. All Israel will be saved. It has nothing to do with preferential treatment either way. One Believes, the other doesn't. 

 

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day....11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy......20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 

 

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (((( I hate to repeat, but If the Fullness of the Gentiles is the Key to Israel being able to SEE AGAIN, then doesn't that say the Gentiles Job will HAVE TO BE OVER, by the time the Israelis are saved and repent and accept Jesus ?  They are beloved for the Fathers sake, he has promised to save all Israel, but they have to rid themselves of UNBELIEF. The Tribulation is clearly designed to Judge this evil world, and to call Israel back to their God. The Church is already saved, by Grace, lest any man boast. ))))

 

The point was Paul was taught in Heaven thus he new the Mystery which he spoke of. Not that he was taught be Angels per se, though I suspect he was, Angels showed John much of the Revelation, even though it was the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Many chapters start out with, then an Angel showed me the Judgment of the Great Harlot, then an Angel etc. etc. etc. 

There were no chapters or verses in the original biblical texts. By symmetrical I meant that God is symmetrical not chronological  as in (: having sides or halves that are the same : having or showing symmetry or being such that the terms or variables may be interchanged without altering the value, character, or truth. or made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis; showing symmetry. )

No where in chapter 8 are the seven trumps called wrath, in the very last verse they are called woes. These are judgments of God on an evil earth, Jesus is opening the Seals, why would anyone assume al of them do not come from the Wrath of the Lamb ?

We know and understand all the apostles went through trials and tribulations, that was also meant for all men who were faced with the choice of spreading the gospel unto all the world. The Gospel has been spread unto AL THE WORLD. The Gentiles time is up, we will not go through the Wrath of God. No need to.

Yes, you're right we won't go through the wrath of God, but the Tribulation is NOT the wrath of God. The Tribulation is caused by the action of the antiChrist. The wrath of God is where God takes vengeance on the wicked unbelievers. Anybody who believes that the Trib is a wrath of God obviously can't tell the difference between good and evil.

Since when has God punished the righteous? Because an awful lot of believers are going to be persecuted and beheaded. Is that God's work? We won't be able to buy or sell. Why not? Is God punishing us for something, but meanwhile he leaves those who have taken the mark alone and allows them to buy and sell?

If you read my opening post, I said that I was leaning towards the Post-trib - pre-wrath position.

Pre-wrath? ie before the wrath - so why are you claiming that we will not go through the wrath of God when I never claimed that we would.

[OakWood]

A FINAL WORD ON THIS NONSENSE

I once had a work colleague who was a militant Atheist. He despised religion and had no belief whatsoever in the supernatural. He actually believed that religion was nothing but superstition, created in the olden days by men who didn’t have the benefit of science to explain the phenomena that they saw around them. As far as he was concerned there was no God because he’d seen no God and he wasn’t prepared to believe in something that he couldn’t see with his own eyes or that science couldn’t explain to him.

One day I overheard him having a conversation where he was mocking Christians for believing in something that they called the rapture. He then added that if such a rapture ever happened and he saw it with his own eyes, then and only then would he consider believing that God might exist. Like most non-believers he needed signs and wonders in order to believe.

And that really sums up one of the great flaws of the pre-Trib rapture. If a rapture occurs, millions of people around the World would witness it. Seeing people that they know fly up into the air and then vanish would terrify the life out of them. Once they put two and two together and realise that all the people who vanished were Christians, they would drop to their knees and beg for mercy. There’s nothing like fear to make a man go running to God with his tail between his legs.

The churches would suddenly become full again, and Catholic confession boxes would be overflowing. Those who were born into the faith but abandoned it would be rushing back home to yank their dusty bibles from the bookshelves. Fear would be making them want to find answers. But of course God does not want us to worship him out of terror, but out of choice. If he did want us to worship out of fear we would be seeing sinners being struck down by bolts of lightning on a regular basis.

The people left behind would be desperately flicking through their Bibles trying to find an explanation for what had happened and their interest in future prophecy would be off the scale. They would learn about the Beast and the number 666 and when they finally got to the back of the book of Revelation they would discover the terrifying truth about the horrific eternal fate that awaited anybody that took the mark of the Beast.

A few hardcore Atheists may still not be convinced but even they would be forced to think twice!

When the antichrist finally appeared (that’s if he even managed to appear at all) most people would be ready for him, and when he finally appeared in the temple performing his puny little miracles nobody would be impressed. “Call that a miracle” they would shriek, “we’ve just seen millions of people rise into the air and vanish never to return. You’ll have to do better than that!”

If on the other hand there is no pre-Trib rapture then even the smoke and mirrors tricks that the anti-Christ performs will astonish many people. Never having seen a miracle before they will believe that this guy is some sort of a messiah figure – and after that they will fall for every lie that he tells them. Except for the Christians of course, we won’t be deceived by him because we will know who he is.

There can be no massive miracles taking place before the anti-Christ seizes power and the rapture would surely classify as one of the greatest miracles of all time. It’s absolutely preposterous to believe that Christians will be raptured before the Tribulation. It would completely invalidate prophecy and act as a warning sign to even the most wicked of people. It’s quite clear from scripture that Christians will be there because after all who else is it that is being beheaded and persecuted? Pre-Tribbers will claim that these people are new Christians. Sure, they’re ‘new Christians’ – anybody really, so long as it’s not you!

And that makes me come to another point. The pre-Trib rapture is not just based on wishful thinking, it’s based on arrogance too, the arrogance of believing that we are somehow different to Christians that came before, not just the ones who came before us, but the ‘new Christians’ who come afterwards.

Christians today are not fit to lick the sandals of the Christians who came before us – the ones who were persecuted and martyred for their faiths. We live in a World where militant Atheism is rampant, homosexuals are getting married, and millions of babies are being aborted. We sit here pontificating but we are doing very little to stop it, so what makes us think that we are special little snowflakes who deserve preferential protection?  Just who do we think we are? While thousands of Christians in the Middle East are being persecuted, raped and murdered by ISIS, we in the West with our little comfy houses and our nice cars actually believe that we deserve to escape any trials and tribulations that may come upon us.

Three years ago (here on the Worthy forums) I would read the discussions posted, discussions by pre-Tribbers who couldn’t wait for the rapture to happen and that it could happen at any time. Well guess what, pre-Tribbers you’re still here! And when we have these discussions in six months’ time you’ll still be here, and when we have the discussions in a years’ time you’ll still be here!

Get over it, the pre-Trib rapture is not going to rescue us. None of us deserve it!

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The coming of Christ is only referred to as a singular event.  It is never "a coming of Christ" or "the comings of Christ."  It is "His coming" or "the coming."

Those who are Christ's are made immortal "at His coming."

 

 

On what do you base this "fact"?

Scriptures brother in Christ, John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her (Mary), Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 

20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. ((( So Jesus tells Mary not to touch him, for he has not yet ascended to the Father, then Jesus comes back 8 Days later and tells Doubting Thomas to put his fingers in his wounds. This tells us Jesus ascended to the Father, and came back. My point is, Jesus never said it would be a "Second Coming", man has ascribed it as a Second Coming.

7 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

It is the second time that Jesus will return to this earth and set foot upon it.   No one considers the rapture a "coming" of Christ, but rather an appearance.   In the rapture Jesus does not return to earth, but rather calls us to heaven.  The "Second Coming" is simply what we call the second time that Jesus returns to set foot on earth, bodily.

I am pre-trib, sounds like you might be to, not sure, just making a point.

 

7 hours ago, OakWood said:

Two comings with the post-trib.

Jesus comes, collects us and passes judgement all in one visit. Technically it's three if you're going to split hairs about him toing back and fro while he does this.

But it's not like the pre-Trib where he comes with a shout, collects us and then disappears again for a while before he comes back a Third time.

The whole point about a second coming is that he has left this World for nearly two thousand years and then he returns and when he does return everybody will know about it because he is here to put the World to rights.

According to pre-Trib he returns (everybody will know about it because he comes with a shout, plus we disappear) then nothing...... the entire World carries on as before as it sails into the Tribulation.

"Wasn't that Jesus we saw?" asks the World. "I don't know" is the answer, "it can't have been because he's gone again. Oh well, might as well carry on with our wicked ways. I was almost ready to believe that he exactly exists then, but he's gone, so I must have imagined it".

That's just how ridiculous the pre-Trib scenario is!

With a post-Trib scenario, the World is already in deep Tribulation, some may even still believe that the antiChrist is a messiah of some sorts, but then the real Messiah returns and the battle begins. The first thing he does is protect us from his wrath by lifting us up in the air to meet him as he arrives. The entire World will see this and probably realise who he is - but by then it will be too late for them!

Hello Brother......He will shout, but only those with the Holy Spirit will hear him.  After Matthew 24 Jesus in Matthew 25 gave us the clue to the Rapture/Marriage Feast. It is the parable of the Ten Virgins, and it is deep. Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Very few see this for what it is, the Rapture. The Lamp stands for our bodies, the Oil stands for the Holy Spirit. The foolish were not filled with the Holy Spirit (Oil) and thus could not go and find the Bridegroom, because they couldn't see him or the were in the dark so to speak. The wise virgins could see him, they had the Holy Spirit, which heard his biding or call. 

 

And the entire world will not hear his call, that is the whole point of the parable above, only those with the Holy Spirit hears his voice/calling/shout. All will see him at his "Second Coming" (a misnomer), but the Rapture is not the Coming to Defeat the Evil World/Beast/Satan. As per us disappearing, this will not happen, we will die, we can not go to heaven with corruptible bodies, the dead in Christ will get new bodies, and we, in the twinkling of an eye, will be changed from corruptible to uncorruptible. 

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

We will leave out corruptible bodies, so all that are Raptured will die earthly deaths. No doubt the Beast and this wicked world will find a reason that so many people died.

 

The trumpet was the signal for the field workers to come into the Temple. The high priest actually stood on the southwestern parapet of the Temple and blew the trumpet so it could be heard in the surrounding fields. The Old Testament saints who faithfully followed the Lord would immediately stop the harvest even if it was not finished and leave for the Temple to worship God. Picture this: A Jew and an Arab are in the field side by side working and they hear the trumpet blown. The Jew would drop what he was doing and immediately leave the field. Can we not see the parallel in God’s plan for the future? Clearly the rapture of believers at the end on the Church Age is in view.

 

I will show you a separate, parallel meaning to the Marriage Feast that will or should make everyone see what Jesus was trying to say, it is rather long, but it is a great parallel. 

[Revelation Man]

8 hours ago, OakWood said:

Two comings with the post-trib.

Jesus comes, collects us and passes judgement all in one visit. Technically it's three if you're going to split hairs about him toing back and fro while he does this.

But it's not like the pre-Trib where he comes with a shout, collects us and then disappears again for a while before he comes back a Third time.

The whole point about a second coming is that he has left this World for nearly two thousand years and then he returns and when he does return everybody will know about it because he is here to put the World to rights.

According to pre-Trib he returns (everybody will know about it because he comes with a shout, plus we disappear) then nothing...... the entire World carries on as before as it sails into the Tribulation.

"Wasn't that Jesus we saw?" asks the World. "I don't know" is the answer, "it can't have been because he's gone again. Oh well, might as well carry on with our wicked ways. I was almost ready to believe that he exactly exists then, but he's gone, so I must have imagined it".

That's just how ridiculous the pre-Trib scenario is!

With a post-Trib scenario, the World is already in deep Tribulation, some may even still believe that the antiChrist is a messiah of some sorts, but then the real Messiah returns and the battle begins. The first thing he does is protect us from his wrath by lifting us up in the air to meet him as he arrives. The entire World will see this and probably realise who he is - but by then it will be too late for them!

 

The Wedding Pattern

The Lord gave Israel seven feasts in Leviticus 23. The Lord refers to the feasts as appointed times (mowed – Strong’s H4150). Mowed means an appointed time, a specific time. Our Heavenly Father knows the End from the Beginning, and the seven specific appointed times of the seven feasts give us an outline of His overall plan and I believe that some appointed times have been, and all will be prophetically fulfilled.

Within the Word of God is the pattern of the Church as the Bride of Christ (hereafter noted as Church) being wed to Jesus, and it is preserved to this day in the practice of the traditional Jewish wedding (hereafter noted as Jewish Wedding). This is not to say that the Church has replaced Israel in the Lord’s plan; quite the opposite. Please see Romans 11:11-18, and 11:25-26.

There are two brides found in Scripture, and Rachel and Leah show us this. Please see Leah, the Bride, and Leah's Children.

When I first realized the connection between the feasts and the steps of the wedding, I was troubled by the Fall Feasts. Although "Trumpets" is a favorite feast for those of us listening for the trumpet of the Lord, I could not clearly in my mind make these feasts fit the Church. The Fall Feasts seem to point to the people Israel. Therefore, when I realized there were two different brides which would be dealt with in separate manners, the pieces seemed to fit together.

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

Praise His name, the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to theChurch.

Each year at Pentecost, Jewish synagogues read the entire Book of Ruth. The story of Ruth takes place at the wheat harvest, or Pentecost. This book is a picture of the Lord Jesus and His Gentile bride. Boaz was the kinsman-redeemer. Jesus is our Redeemer. Ruth was a Moabitess, a Gentile. The Church is the Gentile Bride. That very day, the Day of Pentecost, Boaz redeemed Ruth. The marriage is not mentioned, only the commitment, the betrothal, is recorded. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth is noted in conclusion, but not discussed.

Boaz gave Ruth six measures of barley. A measure of barley was a day’s wages. (Revelation 6:6). I think this is a picture of mankind being paid for six millennial days’ work. The Bride, or the Church, will not have to work after six millennial days or six thousand years. According to Biblical chronology, it has been about six thousand years.

The six measures of barley were also part of the traditional Jewish wedding Bride price. Boaz said, “Do not go to your mother-in-law empty-handed.”

“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - First Corinthians 6:20

At the Feast of Pentecost the Bride of Christ was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit and through this Jesus committed to complete the betrothal of the Church when He comes again.

“in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.” - Ephesians 1:13-14

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

Scripture tells us that a prophetic day can equal a year.

“After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities.” - Numbers 14:34

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” - Daniel 9:27

The Song of Moses, Deuteronomy 32:1-43, is a summary of the Lord’s dealings with Israel. From the summary given by Moses, and many other Scriptures, it appears that the Day of Atonement will be the Day when the Lord Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives and fights against all nations.

 

“Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east.” - Zechariah 14:1-4

Daniel’s last seven days (Daniel 9:27) appear to parallel the seven years of the Tribulation, while the Bride of Christ is in Heaven consummating union to Jesus Messiah and celebrating with the marriage supper. The next appointed time is the Day of Atonement. This indicates that at the end of the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus will return to redeem and make Atonement for Israel.

The latter part of the Song of Moses is prophetic of the Last Days. The very last verse of the Song of Moses says:

“Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.”

The Hebrew word translated as “merciful” is kaphar (Strong’s H3722), and is rendered “make atonement” in the vast majority of its appearances in the Old Testament. Therefore, this verse says “He will provide atonement, for His land and His people.”

In the Revelation, immediately following the Marriage supper of the Lamb is the Return of Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. 

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ” – Revelation 19:11-14

Note that the “armies [which were] in heaven” were clothed in fine linen, white and clean, just like the Bride was given in the preceding verse 19:8. This identifies the “armies” as the Bride of Christ, Saints and Children of God, who will return in victory with the Lord Jesus.

It appears that this day will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

The next, and last, appointed time is the Feast of Tabernacles which was an eight-day event. It occurred at the time of the fall harvest, and was to be a time of joy and celebration.

 

“Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.” - Deuteronomy 16:13-14

The word tabernacle can be a noun or a verb. The Tabernacle in the wilderness was a noun, but it was also a verb describing where the Lord dwelled, or tabernacled, with Israel. In the Kingdom Age the Lord Jesus will dwell, or tabernacle, with mankind.

In the Deuteronomy instructions the Children of Israel are told to celebrate for seven days. In the instructions given in Leviticus 23:33-43 they are told to hold a sacred assembly on the eighth day. In the Bible, seven is the number of completion. Therefore, eight is the number of new beginnings. Noah and his family were eight persons, and represented a new beginning for mankind. A male child was to be circumcized on the eighth day, at the beginning of his life. King David, who laid the foundations for the beginning of the Kingdom of Israel, was the eighth son of Jesse. This eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles indicates new beginnings.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

The Children of Israel were also instructed to live in booths or tents during this feast. This was to be a memorial of the time when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt. The Feast of Tabernacles is aboutDeliverance and will be fulfilled when the Lord delivers Israel from her enemies. Then there will be a New Beginning for the Kingdom of God and His two brides.

The prophetic parallels between the Jewish Wedding and the Church’s Biblical Wedding are simply amazing! What a wonderful picture and wonderful hope this pattern gives to those who are saved and are the Children of God. And only the God of Creation could place this pattern within and throughout the sixty-six books of His Word. Our Heavenly Father is the ultimate Wedding Planner! May His name be praised forever!

 

God Bless............I do not consider it nonsense, you views are respected by me, I have just been led in another direction.

[OakWood]

11 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Scriptures brother in Christ, John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her (Mary), Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 

20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. ((( So Jesus tells Mary not to touch him, for he has not yet ascended to the Father, then Jesus comes back 8 Days later and tells Doubting Thomas to put his fingers in his wounds. This tells us Jesus ascended to the Father, and came back. My point is, Jesus never said it would be a "Second Coming", man has ascribed it as a Second Coming.

I am pre-trib, sounds like you might be to, not sure, just making a point.

 

Hello Brother......He will shout, but only those with the Holy Spirit will hear him.  After Matthew 24 Jesus in Matthew 25 gave us the clue to the Rapture/Marriage Feast. It is the parable of the Ten Virgins, and it is deep. Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

Very few see this for what it is, the Rapture. The Lamp stands for our bodies, the Oil stands for the Holy Spirit. The foolish were not filled with the Holy Spirit (Oil) and thus could not go and find the Bridegroom, because they couldn't see him or the were in the dark so to speak. The wise virgins could see him, they had the Holy Spirit, which heard his biding or call. 

 

And the entire world will not hear his call, that is the whole point of the parable above, only those with the Holy Spirit hears his voice/calling/shout. All will see him at his "Second Coming" (a misnomer), but the Rapture is not the Coming to Defeat the Evil World/Beast/Satan. As per us disappearing, this will not happen, we will die, we can not go to heaven with corruptible bodies, the dead in Christ will get new bodies, and we, in the twinkling of an eye, will be changed from corruptible to uncorruptible. 

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

We will leave out corruptible bodies, so all that are Raptured will die earthly deaths. No doubt the Beast and this wicked world will find a reason that so many people died.

 

The trumpet was the signal for the field workers to come into the Temple. The high priest actually stood on the southwestern parapet of the Temple and blew the trumpet so it could be heard in the surrounding fields. The Old Testament saints who faithfully followed the Lord would immediately stop the harvest even if it was not finished and leave for the Temple to worship God. Picture this: A Jew and an Arab are in the field side by side working and they hear the trumpet blown. The Jew would drop what he was doing and immediately leave the field. Can we not see the parallel in God’s plan for the future? Clearly the rapture of believers at the end on the Church Age is in view.

 

I will show you a separate, parallel meaning to the Marriage Feast that will or should make everyone see what Jesus was trying to say, it is rather long, but it is a great parallel. 

So what you're saying is that a shout is not a shout and a trump is not a trump. Everywhere else in scripture a shout is a shout but according to you it's not a shout when you apply it to the rapture. That's what I mean about pre-Trib you have to change the meaning of scripture to make it fit.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4

[ENOCH2010]

Hey Revelation Man, are you going to add a resurrection to the Bible to go along with the pre-trib rapture? The Bible pinpoints the next major resurrection as happening at the second coming (described in detail) in Rev. 20 , where in the Bible is the resurrection that happens at the pre-trib rapture.

[Serving]

9 hours ago, OakWood said:

So what you're saying is that a shout is not a shout and a trump is not a trump. Everywhere else in scripture a shout is a shout but according to you it's not a shout when you apply it to the rapture. That's what I mean about pre-Trib you have to change the meaning of scripture to make it fit.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 4

Exactly. 

[Serving]

7 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Hey Revelation Man, are you going to add a resurrection to the Bible to go along with the pre-trib rapture? The Bible pinpoints the next major resurrection as happening at the second coming (described in detail) in Rev. 20 , where in the Bible is the resurrection that happens at the pre-trib rapture.

Good point.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The facts are that Jesus clearly stated the time of the Gentiles, inferring they had a set time. Paul stated they are beloved for the Fathers sake.  Israel sinned against God, and God through Daniel decree a 70 week judgment against them. The Church is saved by Jesus, the Jew refuses to believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Tribulation is designed to get Israel to call upon their God in a time of great trouble/need again. Thats why its called Jacobs trouble. It has nothing to do with one group being better than the other or different. One group, Gentiles believe on God, unless they love Satan and his ways of course, and the other group has been blinded by their sins, they can not see that Jesus is the Messiah, the 70 Week prophecy can not be fulfilled until Israel knows Jesus is their Messiah. It has nothing to do with the Jew or Gentile being different, one believes, the other doesn't. Our going through the tribulation would change nothing, we are saved by faith, through grace, Israel going through the tribulation is designed to get them to repent and call upon their God again. All Israel will be saved. It has nothing to do with preferential treatment either way. One Believes, the other doesn't. 

No. You are inferring. You are saying the set time is implied which is false as you have not defined 'fullness'. Which is not the point of this anyway. You just do not get that "all are one in Christ".  The Jews believe all right. They are just stuck in the OT law. They lack complete understanding. What you are suggesting is a form of replacement theology.  You are separating the groups into believers and unbelievers. You are also suggesting total purity of one group over another. 

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day....11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy......20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 

Did you read the entire verse you posted?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (((( I hate to repeat, but If the Fullness of the Gentiles is the Key to Israel being able to SEE AGAIN, then doesn't that say the Gentiles Job will HAVE TO BE OVER, by the time the Israelis are saved and repent and accept Jesus ?  They are beloved for the Fathers sake, he has promised to save all Israel, but they have to rid themselves of UNBELIEF. The Tribulation is clearly designed to Judge this evil world, and to call Israel back to their God. The Church is already saved, by Grace, lest any man boast. ))))

You are assuming the Gentiles have a 'job' to do. What exactly is 'fullness'? You have not defined this term.  I have an issue with your stance of complete purity of the christian church. As if there is no blindness in the church, no sin, no unbelief. Paul says God has concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL. Jews and Gentiles alike.

The point was Paul was taught in Heaven thus he new the Mystery which he spoke of. Not that he was taught be Angels per se, though I suspect he was, Angels showed John much of the Revelation, even though it was the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Many chapters start out with, then an Angel showed me the Judgment of the Great Harlot, then an Angel etc. etc. etc. 

There were no chapters or verses in the original biblical texts. By symmetrical I meant that God is symmetrical not chronological  as in (: having sides or halves that are the same : having or showing symmetry or being such that the terms or variables may be interchanged without altering the value, character, or truth. or made up of exactly similar parts facing each other or around an axis; showing symmetry. )

No where in chapter 8 are the seven trumps called wrath, in the very last verse they are called woes. These are judgments of God on an evil earth, Jesus is opening the Seals, why would anyone assume al of them do not come from the Wrath of the Lamb ?

We know and understand all the apostles went through trials and tribulations, that was also meant for all men who were faced with the choice of spreading the gospel unto all the world. The Gospel has been spread unto AL THE WORLD. The Gentiles time is up, we will not go through the Wrath of God. No need to.

Again, what are you going to say to all those christains around the world that are being persecuted today? The ones who are dying for the faith and are members of the flock are not only preachers and apostles.