Words of Jesus proves pre-Trib rapture is false

[TehMill]

• 16 hours ago, WilliamL said:

  You can escape trials/tribulation, but still be upon earth when they transpire for others. This principle is proved by the prophecy of Rev. 12, about the Woman that flees to the wilderness for protection and provision. Therefore, neither of your two proof texts above actually prove your belief that the Rapture will come before the Trib.

  This can only be true IF the Son of Perdition is the same as "Antichrist." Not a single scripture says so. John was the only biblical author who used the term, and John prophesied nothing about that one for the End Times. Everything that people say about "the Antichrist" in our day is a doctrine of men, not Scripture.

  You do not like to call him Antichrist, ok we'll call him Nastypants, he will set himself against everything called god......this will cause you a great deal of tribulation. Why I think he will all but succeed in annihilating the whole church is because he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God.

He won't do that until he feels he has substancially defeated all comers.

 

Up until that point he will have had a pact with Israel [while they are building the temple] once the temple is built he will suddenly break his pact and invade, bringing the nations up with him.

[TehMill]

18 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Don't leave out the rest . . .

Since we know that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the rapture (vs 16 & 17 of 1 Thess 4)  of the living believers, if we only knew if that resurrection was before or after the tribulation, we could understand if the rapture was before or after the tribulation..

Believers who die in the tribulation, for their testimony of Jesus, come to life in the first resurrection, to be followed by the rapture (1 Thess 4:17).

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. 

We saw in 1 Thess 4,  that the dead in Christ rise first, followed by the living saints in the rapture. Revelation 20 (above)we can see we see the order given is the  first the tribulation, then the catching up of the those who have died in Christ in the First Resurrection, followed by the catching up (rapture) of the living.

totally

[WilliamL]

35 minutes ago, TehMill said:

• You do not like to call him Antichrist, ok we'll call him Nastypants, he will set himself against everything called god......this will cause you a great deal of tribulation. Why I think he will all but succeed in annihilating the whole church is because he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God.

He won't do that until he feels he has substantially defeated all comers.

Literally, the Son of Perdition, whom no biblical source calls Antichrist, will "exhibit himself that he is a god." This takes place in Daniel 11:45; whereas verse 44, "tidings out of the north and the east shall trouble him," show that he is, at that time, FAR FROM 'substantially having defeated all comers.'

The Son of Perdition is not the Beast, who comes after the Trib; whereas the one in Dan. 11:45 who "plants the tabernacle of his pavilion at the glorious holy mountain" comes before the Trib (as Dan. 12:1 tells us), and is "brought to nought" at the end of it, as Paul tells us in 2 Thes. 2:8. Only thereafter will the Beast "ascend out of the Abyss." Rev. 11:7; 17:8

[HAZARD]

That there has been one already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11).

Second, The rapture of those "that are Christs at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:13-16).

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THJOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

[TehMill]

People get tangled up with Revelations, no 2 theologians agree about it and no 2 Christians agree about it

 

It is best to form your theology from open scripture first THEN read the Apocalypse

 

Open scripture is perfectly plain regarding rapture and resurrection

First Christ

then His people at His coming

then comes the end, the final resurrection. according to 1. Cor. 15

 

The great crowd which appears suddenly in heaven with palms which no man could number are in my opinion martyrs..."these are they who have come out of the great tribulation [oh] and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

I thought you said they were not to go through the tribulation?

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by TehMill

[TehMill]

17 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Literally, the Son of Perdition, whom no biblical source calls Antichrist, will "exhibit himself that he is a god." This takes place in Daniel 11:45; whereas verse 44, "tidings out of the north and the east shall trouble him," show that he is, at that time, FAR FROM 'substantially having defeated all comers.'

The Son of Perdition is not the Beast, who comes after the Trib; whereas the one in Dan. 11:45 who "plants the tabernacle of his pavilion at the glorious holy mountain" comes before the Trib (as Dan. 12:1 tells us), and is "brought to nought" at the end of it, as Paul tells us in 2 Thes. 2:8. Only thereafter will the Beast "ascend out of the Abyss." Rev. 11:7; 17:8

You complain if we assume the man of lawlessness is Antichrist, but assume yourself he is that man in Daniel...although scripture does not say so.

Whatever you call him he will set himself against everything called god, this will be the cause of great tribulation my friend.

 he will sit in the temple and declare that he is himself God...he will be destroyed

[TehMill]

Antichrist is not the beast, he is the human agent of the beast...Satan is the beast....Antichrist may be the human manifestation of Satan.

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, TehMill said:

You complain if we assume the man of lawlessness is Antichrist, but assume yourself he is that man in Daniel...although scripture does not say so.

Daniel 11:45 - 12:1 says the King of the North will set up the tents of his pavilion at the glorious holy mountain, and then a time of trouble such as never was will take place, when Michael stands up.

Jesus told us the Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place will begin the Great Tribulation such as never was. And at the end of the Trib, he will appear to gather his elect.

Paul tells us that the Son of Perdition/Man of Lawlessness will exhibit himself in the naos of God, showing himself that he is a god. Only after that will Jesus appear to gather his elect.

Putting these three passages together, which are all speaking in agreement about the same period of time, I say that scripture DOES say so.

 

Now, if you can provide three closely related End Time prophecies that say,

4 hours ago, TehMill said:

Antichrist is not the beast, he is the human agent of the beast...Satan is the beast....Antichrist may be the human manifestation of Satan.

or that say,

22 hours ago, TehMill said:

• You do not like to call him Antichrist, ok we'll call him Nastypants, he will set himself against everything called god......this will cause you a great deal of tribulation. Why I think he will all but succeed in annihilating the whole church is because he will sit in the temple declaring that he himself is God.

He won't do that until he feels he has substantially defeated all comers.

then please do so.

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, HAZARD said:

That there has been one already and will be four more raptures in the first resurrection?

First, the going to Heaven of Christ and the saints who were resurrected after HIS resurrection (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 4:7-11; Acts 1:11).

Second, The rapture of those "that are Christs at His coming" (1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:13-16).

Third, The rapture of the 144,000 Jews in the middle of the Week (Rev. 12:5; 14:1-5; Dan. 12:1; Isa. 66:7-8).

Fourth, The rapture of the tribulation saints (Rev. 7:9-17; 15: 2-4; 20:4-6).

Fifth, The rapture of the two witnesses (Rev. 11:3-12).

That there are two main resurrections from the dead with a thousand years between them. The first is that of the blessed and holy; and this is before the thousand years, for we read "THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTILL THE THJOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED" (Rev. 20:4-15).

I agree with most of this, well spoken. All in all, it is said that there will be seven resurrections of the dead.

"The first/protos resurrection/anastasis/rising up" of Rev. 20:5 is often misunderstood to require it to be the first in time, but protos has another equally important meaning: first in rank/importance. This is the true meaning in the context. All those resurrected/rising up before the Millennium are part of the first-in-importance/rank rising, not just the Rev. 20:4 martyrs. This first in rank resurrection includes that of Jesus, those who arose soon after his resurrection, those who come out of the Trib, the 144,000, and the Rev. 20:4 martyrs.

[Last Daze]

On 7/30/2016 at 7:11 PM, TehMill said:

The Lord's coming is the END of Antichrist not the beginning, he will have reigned a bit while  the church is still as yet ungathered.

Agreed.

Isn't it funny how the resurrection / changing / rapture  happens at the LAST trumpet on the LAST day and yet some people keep insisting that it happens first or nearly first?  They offer no reasonable explanation of Paul's statement of the trump of God as the last trumpet nor do they have anything biblical for Jesus' declaration of the resurrection happening on the last day.

If someone is truly interested in the timing of our immortality and gathering to Him, then prioritize discovering what the trumpet of God is and when He sounds it.  It will be on the last day.  The last day of what?  Start there because there's no question that it happens then.