The False and Inaccurate Post Trib Doctrine

[Diaste]

On 6/18/2016 at 11:25 AM, bopeep1909 said:

Sometimes people post these kind of threads to bring on disagreement and try to bring on angry debates.

True. I bow out of those.  I stay away from the ones that spiral downward into ridiculous word studies or go off topic as well. But I still think the discussions are necessary for defense of the truth.

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

My journey from not understanding when the rapture was to understanding, why and how I got there.

 

My first thought to myself was: "Explain how Revelation 19 can happen without a Rapture !! It clearly says we come back from Heaven, after marrying the Lamb, with Jesus Christ, on white horses." 

This is a good question. Were you prepared to let the facts prove this hypothesis correct or incorrect? Did you find a link for the "we" in your conclusion between the elect and the armies we see in Rev 19? Did you find evidence that the marriage supper occurs when you hypothesize? It's not really clear at all. There is no proof the marriage supper has already occurred, and in fact it looks as though the marriage supper occurs in New Jerusalem after the armies of earth are defeated, not before. And he "we" in your conclusion is as unclear. Clothed in fine linen, clean and white does not prove the armies are made up of the elect. Since the elect are named several times why would Jesus not say, "14 And the ELECT which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." But Jesus does not say this.

 

So do we go to Heaven and Marry Jesus or not ? And it seemed like it was before we fight the Beast/Kings and their Armies on earth. So I had a concrete starting point for my journey. Everything else must explain this chapter that seems to suggest, THERE HAS T BE A RAPTURE.

Of course there is a rapture(gathering of the elect). But your assumption is not concrete. It seems to you, "it was before we fight the Beast/Kings and their Armies on earth" so this is not evidence the marriage supper occurs in heaven before, well, anything.

 

My credo on scriptures is to take them for what they say, and if two scriptures contradict themselves, to find out why, because God does not contradict Himself. This works for me, I never go into A contradiction or supposed contradiction with preset beliefs, that is a hindrance to finding out the truth.

 

So if Rev. 19 can not happen without a Rapture, then I understood the Rapture could not happen at the same time Jesus Returned to the earth to destroy the wicked and save Israel and to save those who had not accepted the Mark of the Beast, and to resurrect those beheaded during this tribulation period, the ones who missed the Rapture, because they were not Christians at the time. I understood this just didn't add up. We are IN HEAVEN, marrying the Lamb, so we have to come back from Heaven, where we had to GO TO because the Holy Word says we are there, in Heaven......So there had to be a Rapture. Through much study I understood there has to be a rapture before Jesus comes back to rule on earth.

 Matt 24:31 "...and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Neither of these say the elect are gathered from inside heaven. It appears the phrases are idiomatic poetic language describing the scope of the gathering, from everywhere the context of the verse demands. This is where your hypothesis takes another hit. The context of both the above verses is the earth. Jesus has returned to the earth after the signs of His coming appeared in the heavens. The sky rolled back and Jesus come from heaven to earth, in the air, and everyone can see him. Since this is the same coming as we see in Rev 19, even though the Spirit is showing us different characteristics of the same event, why is Jesus sending the angels to gather the elect if they are already in heaven, with Jesus, and already married to Him? This is mountainous contradiction. This also means the armies in heaven with Jesus in Rev 19 are likely angels. The coming of Jesus in Matt and Mark is with the angels to gather the elect. Since this event is the same as the Rev 19 event, the armies we see in Rev 19 are angels and not the elect. I'm sure the elect are not set for battle, they have already battled through the fiery trial of the beast. Now they have been given rest and the well prepped and rested army made up of angels goes to battle on their behalf with the Lord.

 

 

So then, I set about to figure out why God's word seemed to contradict itself in many scriptures, for I know God is not the author of confusion, Satan is. So I took the verses that seemed to contradict with the Pre-tribulation beliefs, to see if they stood up, for if they did, I was going to have reevaluate Rev. 19 and see if I had read the passage(s) wrong.

 

But while reading all the verses, I begin to understand why people might think there was no pre-tribulation rapture, but I also saw what I thought to be a major flaw in these beliefs. I began to understand that every scripture that looked contradictory, was only that way because it was assumed that the Rapture was at the Same time as the "Second Coming" which is actually the Second Coming of Salvation, the first was to save from sin, the second is to save Israel and those who have become Christians. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, Joseph did the same thing, Joseph was rejected of his brothers, and saved the Gentiles, (Egyptians from Starvation) then the second time his brothers came to Joseph, HE SAVED THEM....Ditto Jesus. He was rejected by Israel, and saved the Gentile world from Sin, the second time he will save Israel his brothers who rejected him, sold, mocked him etc....AMEN !! 

Hmm...Since there are scriptures that show a world wide gathering at the time Jesus returns; specifically noted as a real time event, global in scope and occurring in conjunction with exceedingly great power and glory and crushing terror, why is there no where in scripture where another world wide gathering takes place? Obviously any such early gathering would be catastrophic for everyone on earth. So why no mention in the bible of this? Maybe because it isn't there? To equate the work of Jesus on the cross with Joseph interpreting a dream the way you do is not quite correct. The bread of life, the Word, is delivered to the world. No one was taken out of the world.  

 

But I understood through study and revelation, that if the Rapture precedes the "Second Coming of Salvation" that there would be no contradictions in the verses. Jesus stated he would return Immediately after the Tribulation, but with a Rapture pre-tribulation, we Saints in Heaven in Rev. 19 could also return with Jesus Immediately after the Tribulation, so there was no contradiction in this verse now.

Yes, if an assumption is made that one event must occur at a given time any conclusion can seem to be valid. But where is the biblical evidence that such an event happens as you believe? 

 

The "Last Trump" I studied for awhile. There are 62 mentions of trumps in the bible. Trumps are blown at the Feasts, there is a last trump to every feast. There is a last trump to every Isthmian games held in Corinth ever two years (at that time). Joel 2:1 didn't work for me because it was called a warning, and Paul said in Corinthians that we would be changed in the twinkling of and eye, not warned,  and there is another trump sounded at Joel 2:15. The Trump argument just did not sway me that it had to be the Last Trump in Revelation.  There are many trumps in the bible, various kinds that came at various times for various reasons. Many Trumps are blown at the end of things, if Jesus died on passover, and he did, and returns at another feast day, this might be the reference here, I just do not know, but we can't just assume this is the Last Trump in Revelation, especially when there are Seven Vials of Judgment left. 

 

Then I studied "The Day of the Lord" in depth, and that is Judgment on the earth no doubt. But Second Thessalonians chapter 2 is discussing how the Gathering unto Christ will happen before the Day of the Lord, fear not, for before the day of the Lord, both the apostasy and the Anti-Christ must happen/come to pass. The Thessalonians feared they had missed the Rapture. SUBJECT OF CHAPTER: As concerning the Gathering together unto the Lord........Or the Rapture. The Subject was the Rapture, not the Day of the Lord or the Anti-Christ. Another supposed contradiction accounted for. 

 

But you again miss all the relevant points. Paul is connecting the Day of the Lord the gathering together of us to Him as the same time/space moment. The subject is clearly the Day of the Lord. 

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," (our gathering and the Coming of Jesus, eternally connected)

2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

The Day of the Lord is the subject, says so right here. The Thessalonians were concerned they were in the Day of Christ. Paul tells them to ignore any word that tells them the Day of Christ is here. He does not reference the gathering at this point because the concern of the Thessalonians was about the Day of the Lord. Obviously they were fretting about this day as occurring and they were unaware. As obvious is the fact they had been hearing about it from spirits, by preaching and through letters about the Day of the Lord commencing, as Paul touched on all three. It's clear that Paul has connected the Day of the Lord with the gathering of the elect as occurring together. Paul further says we are to ignore spirits that say the day is at hand, letters promoting such a thing, and preaching trying to convince us the gathering, at the Day of Christ, is going to occur before the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin.

 

"The First Resurrection"...... in our numbering things we are limiting God. God spread out Daniels 70 Sevens decree over three time periods. Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the living, every person resurrected in Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection or the resurrection of the living, in Christ Jesus. The Second resurrection will be the resurrection of the dead, after the 1000 year reign. God has no time limits, He does not live in a realm of time per se. So I understood, there are truly only two resurrections. Those who will live forever will be quickened and will be raised first, not all at the same time per se. Then those who will die the second death will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign. 

 

Matthew 24:31 was Jesus calling the elect, gathering them to come fight the fight with him. But I noticed it said the Angels would gather the elect from one end of Heaven to the other. We are in Heaven marrying the Lamb (Rev. 19) So no contradiction is left by us reading this in the plain English that it is written in, literally. Mark says he gathers the elect from Heaven and earth, well that is what we pre-tribbers say, there will be elect in Heaven (the Raptured) and on earth (Israel/lost souls who became Christians after the Rapture). Contradiction gone again, We can be in Heaven, marrying the Lamb, and be called from the four corners of Heaven, by Gods angels. (Rev 19 still intact)

As I queried above: How is it that Jesus gathers from heaven the elect when you say the elect is coming with Him? It's not possible. The Matt 24 coming of Jesus is the same event as the Rev 19 coming. You said before that all the elect was already in heaven and they were gathered from there to return to the earth. Now you say the gathering is both from the earth and heaven. How does that square with your premise the marriage supper occurs in heaven 7 years before the return of Jesus? All those saints gathered on earth then had no part in the marriage supper of the Lamb. Why would they be excluded? Are you saying only some saints are good enough to be involved in the marriage supper? Maybe you are saying the original people of God, Israel, cannot partake in the marriage supper. Why would that be?

 

Last but not least I wondered how Rev. 7:14 could happen, these came out of the Great Tribulation. And how Satan could be given the power to overcome the Saints. Then I saw that the Rapture being pre-tribulation had no effect on the fact that there will be Christians who become Christians after the Rapture, these will be persecuted for their Faith, even as Israel is protected, probably in Petra/Edom.  Contradiction again solved, the Rapture of the Saints has no bearing on the Saints who became Saints after the Rapture being persecuted by Satan. So this was my journey, from not knowing if the Rapture was Pre, Mid or Post tribulation, unto what I deem the truth, I came to this decision after 30 years, with much research and study, and guidance from God. I entered the fray with no preconceived notions. 

Yes. And I decided that since I want unicorns to exist, they do. If all the believers are taken off the earth before the Trib, the entire earth is populated by unbelievers. Who's getting persecuted for their faith? Are you saying that since all believers are going to be gone, believers from all people on the earth, every religion, walk of life, rich, poor, great and small, that suddenly millions of unbelievers are going to turn to Jesus when there is no one left to witness? Even if it was true that unbelievers are going to turn to Jesus, sans preachers of the word(something that has never happened), how long is that going to take to get to a number no man can number? It would have to take less than three years since trib begins at the midpoint. Even if the trib is 7 years it's an impossible scenario and a vast contradiction of scripture.

 

Revelation 19 hit me like a ton of bricks. There has to be a Rapture for Rev. 19 to be true, that was he origin or genesis of my understanding on the subject. Then I tried the understanding by fire so to speak. 

I hate getting hit by bricks. Always leaves a nasty mark.

 

God Bless

 

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

This is a good question. Were you prepared to let the facts prove this hypothesis correct or incorrect? Did you find a link for the "we" in your conclusion between the elect and the armies we see in Rev 19? Did you find evidence that the marriage supper occurs when you hypothesize? It's not really clear at all. There is no proof the marriage supper has already occurred, and in fact it looks as though the marriage supper occurs in New Jerusalem after the armies of earth are defeated, not before. And he "we" in your conclusion is as unclear. Clothed in fine linen, clean and white does not prove the armies are made up of the elect. Since the elect are named several times why would Jesus not say, "14 And the ELECT which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." But Jesus does not say this.

 

Are you prepared to allow the facts to speak ? Rev. 19:⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  ( Could this be any clearer ? Who is Jesus' wife ? The Church. Who is part of the Elect ? Church !! )

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. ( What does the Fine, White Linen represent ? The Saints = The Church )

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. ( So if it is not Clear, I can't understand why as per New Jerusalem, that prove that the Church is in Heaven, before the Seven Vials are poured out. )

 

^{Rev. 21:9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Church)

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ( The Bride is in Heaven, in the New Jerusalem, before the Seven Vials are poured out !! It is like unto the Marriage Chamber of the Jewish bride, where she and the groom stay for Seven Days (7 years) Remember Jesus said, behold, I go and prepare a place for you, and if I go, I will come again. (The Bridegroom prepares a Marriage Chamber for the bride). Jesus also said that no man knows when he will return, save the Father,  that is because the Father decided when the Bridegroom would return, and shout for the Bride. It was usually around midnight, they surprised the bride, this is why she has to keep her lamp full of oil. Be Ready. She was expecting the bridegroom, she would not be totally surprised, but knew not the hour or the day.)

 

So yes, we know the WE........It is the Bride (Church) and Saints of God (Church). 

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

 Matt 24:31 "...and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

The Elect are in Heaven according to the word of God, and God sends his angels to gather them, or prepare them to leave. Rev. 19 clearly says the SAINTS are in Heaven, you just have a preconceived idea, which you refuse to budge on. That is your right, but why tell me I am reading something wrong, when we can both see that I back up my beliefs with scriptures ? 

 

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Hmm...Since there are scriptures that show a world wide gathering at the time Jesus returns; specifically noted as a real time event, global in scope and occurring in conjunction with exceedingly great power and glory and crushing terror, why is there no where in scripture where another world wide gathering takes place? Obviously any such early gathering would be catastrophic for everyone on earth. So why no mention in the bible of this? Maybe because it isn't there? To equate the work of Jesus on the cross with Joseph interpreting a dream the way you do is not quite correct. The bread of life, the Word, is delivered to the world. No one was taken out of the world.  

 

Incoherent to me. We the Church are not gathered together on earth, we are raptured, I think you know the difference. As per Joseph being the shadow of the suffering Jesus while David was he shadow of the conquering Jesus, that goes without saying. 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes, if an assumption is made that one event must occur at a given time any conclusion can seem to be valid. But where is the biblical evidence that such an event happens as you believe? 

 

Rev. 19 clearly proves a rapture, unless you try and jump through hoops.

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

But you again miss all the relevant points. Paul is connecting the Day of the Lord the gathering together of us to Him as the same time/space moment. The subject is clearly the Day of the Lord. 

 

You can not know what trump Paul was speaking about, you ASSUME, even then, the last trump in Rev. is followed by SEVEN VIALS OF WRATH. There are many, many trumps, all are used to start and end things. 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," (our gathering and the Coming of Jesus, eternally connected)

2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

 

Like I stated above in my OP, all post tribbers ASSUME that the gathering and the Day of the Lord/Judgment are one and the same, a flaw it seems that has no cred. 

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Day of the Lord is the subject, says so right here. The Thessalonians were concerned they were in the Day of Christ. Paul tells them to ignore any word that tells them the Day of Christ is here. He does not reference the gathering at this point because the concern of the Thessalonians was about the Day of the Lord. Obviously they were fretting about this day as occurring and they were unaware. As obvious is the fact they had been hearing about it from spirits, by preaching and through letters about the Day of the Lord commencing, as Paul touched on all three. It's clear that Paul has connected the Day of the Lord with the gathering of the elect as occurring together. Paul further says we are to ignore spirits that say the day is at hand, letters promoting such a thing, and preaching trying to convince us the gathering, at the Day of Christ, is going to occur before the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin.

 

Again, it is just odd to me that this gets misinterpreted. It is very clear that the Thessalonians are fearful the the Day of he Lord/Judgment day has come upon them. Paul says, don't fear, because THAT DAY can not come until there is an "FALLING AWAY" and the ANTI-CHRIST comes to power. WHAT DAY can not come ? JUDGMENT DAY/DAY OF THE LORD...........................If what they were speaking about was Jesus coming back on THAT DAY/JUDGMENT DAY, they wouldn't have feared anything, because they could see JUDGMENT HAD NOT STARTED..............That was plain as day. But they could have missed the Rapture, and Judgment could have been near. The word parousa is used for coming, it means NEAR or an ADVENT, the Raptue is an event, and Jesus only comes NEAR, he calls us from the sky.  Nowhere do I see a coming to judge at the same tome this rapture happens. 

 

He has to COME to gather us unto Heaven. This is about JESUS coming to GATHER US.....Which is why I said the SUBJECT is the GATHERING.....Again, you make the ASSUMPTION, this coming is about the DAY OF THE LORD, but it is about the GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.

 

The Man of Lawlessness
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,( NOW AS CONCERNING THE RAPTURE)  we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.… ( So the Thessalonians must have asked Paul about the Rapture or GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO JESUS.  And he assured them that the DAY OF THE LORD was not upon them, because many other things had to happen first. If Paul had told them they had to go through the tribulation and Day of the Lord, why would they have been fearing ?

 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

As I queried above: How is it that Jesus gathers from heaven the elect when you say the elect is coming with Him?

Some will miss the Rapture. That has been stated many times. That is why you have Saints on earth, and Israel also Accepts Jesus.

[Ezra]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation 19 hit me like a ton of bricks. There has to be a Rapture for Rev. 19 to be true, that was he origin or genesis of my understanding on the subject.

Exactly.  The Rapture will be followed by the Judgement Seat of Christ in Heaven, then the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, then the Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels.  There is no reference to the Rapture in Revelation, but we do see all the saints in Heaven in Revelation 7.

It has been commonly assumed that "came out of great tribulation" must mean "went through" the Great Tribulation.  But it is more consistent to interpret that as "escaped" the Great Tribulation. Why? Because the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God against the unbelieving and the ungodly, as well as the enemies of Christ. (Rev 3:10).

[Revelation Man]

5 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Exactly.  The Rapture will be followed by the Judgement Seat of Christ in Heaven, then the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, then the Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels.  There is no reference to the Rapture in Revelation, but we do see all the saints in Heaven in Revelation 7.

It has been commonly assumed that "came out of great tribulation" must mean "went through" the Great Tribulation.  But it is more consistent to interpret that as "escaped" the Great Tribulation. Why? Because the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God against the unbelieving and the ungodly, as well as the enemies of Christ. (Rev 3:10).

There will be "elect/Saints that do come out of the Great Tribulation. Those that gave their lives to Christ after the rapture, these were the beheaded under the alter in the 5th seal. 

 

I just caught this today. Have you ever noticed this ?

^{Rev. 21:9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Church)

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ( The Bride is in Heaven, in the New Jerusalem, before the Seven Vials are poured out !! It is like unto the Marriage Chamber of the Jewish bride, where she and the groom stay for Seven Days (7 years) Remember Jesus said, behold, I go and prepare a place for you, and if I go, I will come again. (The Bridegroom prepares a Marriage Chamber for the bride). Jesus also said that no man knows when he will return, save the Father,  that is because the Father decided when the Bridegroom would return, and shout for the Bride. It was usually around midnight, they surprised the bride, this is why she has to keep her lamp full of oil. Be Ready. She was expecting the bridegroom, she would not be totally surprised, but knew not the hour or the day.)

 

God Bless.

[Ezra]

8 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

There will be "elect/Saints that do come out of the Great Tribulation. Those that gave their lives to Christ after the rapture, these were the beheaded under the alter in the 5th seal. 

Yes. The Tribulation Saints are not the same as the Church, and they will all be martyred.

[Diaste]

 

19 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Are you prepared to allow the facts to speak ? Rev. 19:⁷ Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  ( Could this be any clearer ? Who is Jesus' wife ? The Church. Who is part of the Elect ? Church !! )

I fully agree this is the church. But that wasn't the point. Where is the biblical link between the armies and the saints? Being dressed in white is not conclusive as white represents righteousness, not a people group.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. ( What does the Fine, White Linen represent ? The Saints = The Church )

This is where Pre Trib goes wrong on many points. The scripture does not say that fine linen, clean and white is equal to the saints. Fine linen, clean and white represents "righteousness" of the saints. So in no way does this say the saints alone are represented by white, clean, fine linen, it's a representation of a condition of holiness and righteousness. To wit:

Daniel 7:9

I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Matthew 17:2

And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 16:5

And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

Revelation 3:4

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:5

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:18

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.

Revelation 4:4

And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Its clear that Saints, Elders, God, and Angels are all dressed in white. Stating the group in Rev 19 consists of saints, sans any other evidence, is an assumption made even more problematic as fine linen, white and clean represents righteousness as stated in Rev 19:8 "8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints." 

⁹ And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. ( So if it is not Clear, I can't understand why as per New Jerusalem, that prove that the Church is in Heaven, before the Seven Vials are poured out. )

 

^{Rev. 21:9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Church)

¹⁰ And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ( The Bride is in Heaven, in the New Jerusalem, before the Seven Vials are poured out !! It is like unto the Marriage Chamber of the Jewish bride, where she and the groom stay for Seven Days (7 years) Remember Jesus said, behold, I go and prepare a place for you, and if I go, I will come again. (The Bridegroom prepares a Marriage Chamber for the bride). Jesus also said that no man knows when he will return, save the Father,  that is because the Father decided when the Bridegroom would return, and shout for the Bride. It was usually around midnight, they surprised the bride, this is why she has to keep her lamp full of oil. Be Ready. She was expecting the bridegroom, she would not be totally surprised, but knew not the hour or the day.)

 

So yes, we know the WE........It is the Bride (Church) and Saints of God (Church). 

Of course none of what you are saying here answers the question. I understand the church is with Jesus when the vials of wrath are poured out. No believers are left on earth during the wrath of God. That's biblical. The questions remains about the link between the saints and the army in Rev 19, when the marriage supper occurs and why is there no mention of a great worldwide disappearance 7 years before Jesus returns.

 

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

 Matt 24:31 "...and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Mark 13:27 "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

The Elect are in Heaven according to the word of God, and God sends his angels to gather them, or prepare them to leave. Rev. 19 clearly says the SAINTS are in Heaven, you just have a preconceived idea, which you refuse to budge on. That is your right, but why tell me I am reading something wrong, when we can both see that I back up my beliefs with scriptures ? 

You post scripture but the Pre Trib ideology misrepresents those same scriptures.  Pre Trib simply ignores context and cherry picks phrases to construe scripture to fit an agenda. What you are not dealing with is the same question I asked earlier: If Jesus is coming with saints from heaven, yet the angels are gathering saints from the earth, why do these saints on earth not participate in the Marriage Supper? And why are these saints on earth when no believer in Jesus is appointed to wrath? Pre wrath solves these issues. All the saints remain on earth during the time of the beast, all the saints are raptured after this time and meet Jesus in the air, Jesus and His armies defeat the beast and take control of the earth, New Jerusalem descends from God and the Marriage Supper takes place in New Jerusalem before or at the same general time as the Millennial reign begins.

Incoherent to me. We the Church are not gathered together on earth, we are raptured, I think you know the difference. As per Joseph being the shadow of the suffering Jesus while David was he shadow of the conquering Jesus, that goes without saying. 

According to you, at some point the saints are certainly gathered from the earth. It looks like a semantic play here. Where are the saints raptured from in the first place? The Moon? Betelgeuse? An alternate dimension? But you still do not answer the question. Why is there no mention in scripture of a global disappearance of millions of people prior to the A of D? When there is a group mentioned coming from 'great tribulation' and lauded for their great victory, why would God fail to mention the rapture of a rigidly faithful and pure in essence group of people?

 

Rev. 19 clearly proves a rapture, unless you try and jump through hoops.

Again, not the point. Obviously there is a rapture. I don't see Rev 19 as proving that but the truth is a great gathering occurs. Pre Trib poses illogical scenarios with no context. You state a pre trib rapture but where is the biblical evidence? There is Post Trib evidence for a rapture in scripture, and definitively stated. Not so with Pre Trib. Again, there is a rapture, but when? Pre Wrath harmonizes all scriptures in a logical manner. Apparently Pre Trib has difficulty dealing with some core issues.

You can not know what trump Paul was speaking about, you ASSUME, even then, the last trump in Rev. is followed by SEVEN VIALS OF WRATH. There are many, many trumps, all are used to start and end things. 

This is continuing behavior on your part during this discussion. I said nothing about trumpets. This is a red herring. Pre Trib does this often to avoid answering questions and dealing with biblical facts.

 

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," (our gathering and the Coming of Jesus, eternally connected)

2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

 

Like I stated above in my OP, all post tribbers ASSUME that the gathering and the Day of the Lord/Judgment are one and the same, a flaw it seems that has no cred. 

A flaw? In the words of Paul? From the bible? Are you saying that God blew it? Jesus missed this and didn't really mean to say what he said? Clearly Paul is linking the Day of the Lord and our gathering together to Him. There is no assumption by Pre Wrath from the above verses. Paul is clearly linking the two events.

 

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

The Day of the Lord is the subject, says so right here. The Thessalonians were concerned they were in the Day of Christ. Paul tells them to ignore any word that tells them the Day of Christ is here. He does not reference the gathering at this point because the concern of the Thessalonians was about the Day of the Lord. Obviously they were fretting about this day as occurring and they were unaware. As obvious is the fact they had been hearing about it from spirits, by preaching and through letters about the Day of the Lord commencing, as Paul touched on all three. It's clear that Paul has connected the Day of the Lord with the gathering of the elect as occurring together. Paul further says we are to ignore spirits that say the day is at hand, letters promoting such a thing, and preaching trying to convince us the gathering, at the Day of Christ, is going to occur before the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin.

 

Again, it is just odd to me that this gets misinterpreted. It is very clear that the Thessalonians are fearful the the Day of he Lord/Judgment day has come upon them. Paul says, don't fear, because THAT DAY can not come until there is an "FALLING AWAY" and the ANTI-CHRIST comes to power. WHAT DAY can not come ? JUDGMENT DAY/DAY OF THE LORD...........................If what they were speaking about was Jesus coming back on THAT DAY/JUDGMENT DAY, they wouldn't have feared anything, because they could see JUDGMENT HAD NOT STARTED..............That was plain as day. But they could have missed the Rapture, and Judgment could have been near. The word parousa is used for coming, it means NEAR or an ADVENT, the Raptue is an event, and Jesus only comes NEAR, he calls us from the sky.  Nowhere do I see a coming to judge at the same tome this rapture happens. 

This is an error in your narrative.  You said;  Then I studied "The Day of the Lord" in depth, and that is Judgment on the earth no doubt. But Second Thessalonians chapter 2 is discussing how the Gathering unto Christ will happen before the Day of the Lord, fear not, for before the day of the Lord, both the apostasy and the Anti-Christ must happen/come to pass. The Thessalonians feared they had missed the Rapture. SUBJECT OF CHAPTER: As concerning the Gathering together unto the Lord........Or the Rapture. The Subject was the Rapture, not the Day of the Lord or the Anti-Christ. Another supposed contradiction accounted for. 

Now you say this was about the Day of the Lord.

He has to COME to gather us unto Heaven. This is about JESUS coming to GATHER US.....Which is why I said the SUBJECT is the GATHERING.....Again, you make the ASSUMPTION,(2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". It's not assumed when it's clearly stated.), this coming is about the DAY OF THE LORD, but it is about the GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM.

Now you say it's about the gathering. You seem to be flopping back and forth. When it suits you a passage means one thing, then later you change when you need to prove a point. You post the passage several times but still cannot see Paul is referring to both the gathering and the Day of the Lord occurring at the same time/space moment.

The Man of Lawlessness
1Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,( NOW AS CONCERNING THE RAPTURE)  we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed.… ( So the Thessalonians must have asked Paul about the Rapture or GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO JESUS.  And he assured them that the DAY OF THE LORD was not upon them, because many other things had to happen first. If Paul had told them they had to go through the tribulation and Day of the Lord, why would they have been fearing ?

And you're doing it again. You contend this passage is only speaking about the rapture when Paul is referring to both the coming of the Lord and the gathering in the same breath. In the next verse Paul refers to the coming as the Day of Christ which we all know is synonymous with the Day of the Lord, The Wrath of the Lamb, and the Wrath of God. Paul inescapeably links both events. If the rapture were to take place several years before the day of the Lord then Paul would have no need to link the two, and there would be no question in the minds of the Thessalonians as they would have seen thousands of believers, some of there own congregation, disappear years previously. If that were the case, Thessalonians witnessing the disappearance of believers of their own congregation, then the Thessalonians would have immediately made the connection the rapture happened, the A of D was going to occur in 3.5 years and the Day of the Lord sometime after that. They would have known they were not in the day of the Lord and the question would not have come up.

So why did the question arise? Because the Thessalonians already understood there was no such thing as a Pre Trib rapture. If they understood the rapture to be Pre Trib there would be no need to ask  the question, they would have known they would not be on earth for any of the 70th week. In the minds of the Thessalonians the gathering and the day of the Lord were linked in time/space and they were afraid the day was upon them and they missed the gathering and were about to endure the Wrath of God.

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

As I queried above: How is it that Jesus gathers from heaven the elect when you say the elect is coming with Him?

Some will miss the Rapture. That has been stated many times. That is why you have Saints on earth, and Israel also Accepts Jesus.

But you still have the problem of believers going through the Wrath of God, to which believers are not appointed, and these same believers not partaking in the marriage supper. If believers go through the trib and are gathered just before the Wrath of God, and the marriage supper happens in New Jerusalem after the 70th week is over, there is no issue reconciling this Pre trib contradiction.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Ezra said:

Exactly.  The Rapture will be followed by the Judgement Seat of Christ in Heaven, then the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, then the Second Coming of Christ with His saints and angels.  There is no reference to the Rapture in Revelation, but we do see all the saints in Heaven in Revelation 7.

It has been commonly assumed that "came out of great tribulation" must mean "went through" the Great Tribulation.  But it is more consistent to interpret that as "escaped" the Great Tribulation. Why? Because the Great Tribulation is the wrath of God against the unbelieving and the ungodly, as well as the enemies of Christ. (Rev 3:10).

This might be true if terms are confused. Great tribulation is not the Wrath of God. No biblical case can be made making these time periods synonymous. Matt 24 states "after the tribulation of those days" Then the coming of Jesus. Jesus goes on from verse 30 to liken His coming with the days of Noah and gives us details about the gathering of the elect by the angels, the only gathering of the elect extant. 

The only way one 'comes out of' is if one is 'in'.  There is no justification to change the language of 'going from out of' to escaped, or 'to flee away'. 

The question is: Why are there believers on earth during the wrath of God when believers are 'not appointed to wrath'? And if the Marriage Supper and the judgement seat already occur before the second coming, then how do the believers on earth partake in the Marriage Supper and appear before the Judgment Seat?

Rev 3:10 does not equate to wrath. It's the hour of temptation. Equating the two is incorrect. The idea of the end of the age is to chasten and test the church(tribulation) and defeat the enemies of God(Wrath of the Lamb).  The church is going in and through the trib right up til Jesus appears and gathers us, then the Wrath of God falls on God's enemies.

 

Revelation 3:19

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

Hebrews 12

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

To think the church will not be chastened means the church considers itself not a child of God. From the concepts presented the conclusion that only those loved by Jesus are chastened and those who are not chastened are fatherless.

Sobering thoughts.

[Ezra]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Great tribulation is not the Wrath of God.

What can one say when such statement are made?  So should we assume that the Great Tribulation consists of the blessings of God?

[Last Daze]

57 minutes ago, Ezra said:

What can one say when such statement are made?  So should we assume that the Great Tribulation consists of the blessings of God?

Did God create the image of the beast and demand that everyone worship it or be put to death?  At least try.