you all have mental issues.

[post]

2 hours ago, FresnoJoe said:

I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. Romans 6:19 (New International Version)

The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:63 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

not an explanation, nor an answer, Joe. 

what, do you think he's implying that it would be better to use ESP to explain what he is telling them,
instead of a merely human thing like "words" ? 

[post]

6 hours ago, post said:

Paul is speaking by the Holy Spirit to believers, people fully saved and declared holy, found in Christ, when he says this: 

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. 
(Romans 6:19) 


what does that mean? 

does this mean that since we received the gospel, we don't have human limitations anymore, and that our minds are all fully transformed? that we are mentally capable of comprehending all the mysteries of God? that we have no more natural, human limitations? i.e. there are no 'issues' with our minds? 

does anyone think that is what the fact that this is written here means? 

need a closer look? ((the NIV here strays pretty far from the actual text)) 
 

Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
442 [e]	anthrōpinon	ἀνθρώπινον	Humanly	Adj-ANS
3004 [e]	legō	λέγω	I speak,	V-PIA-1S
1223 [e]	dia	διὰ	on account of	Prep
3588 [e]	tēn	τὴν	the	Art-AFS
769 [e]	astheneian	ἀσθένειαν	weakness	N-AFS
3588 [e]	tēs	τῆς	of the	Art-GFS
4561 [e]	sarkos	σαρκὸς	flesh	N-GFS
4771 [e]	hymōn	ὑμῶν.	of you.	PPro-G2P

Paul is literally saying that he has to talk to them as a human because their flesh is weak. 
does that maybe mean that a "flesh issue" translates to a "mental issue" -- since that "flesh issue" results in a "comprehension issue" whereby the apostle must speak "humanly" to them, in order for them to understand? 

and these are people who are included in Christ. he is not writing to non-believers. 
anyone find that strange? 
or are we all comfortable with this describing our natural state, having been called to His purpose, sealed with the Spirit, and waiting for Him to return, still living within this tent? 
or maybe someone might find that strange because they have themselves progressed so far beyond such a 'childlike' state of 'mental limitation' that such limitations no longer apply to them? 

*shrug* 

y'all tell me. what do i know? i have mental issues and unhealthy obsessions, lol

 

 

[FresnoJoe]

5 hours ago, post said:

not an explanation, nor an answer, Joe. 

what, do you think he's implying that it would be better to use ESP
to explain what he is telling them,
instead of a merely human thing
like "words" ? 

Quote

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. (Romans 6:19) 

what does that mean?

Beloved

I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. Romans 6:19 (English Standard Version)

Never Once

The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn't help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. John 6:63 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Have I Heard God Stutter

We who are strong ought to bear with the shortcomings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.

For even Christ did not please Himself, but as it is written: “The insults of those who insult You have fallen on Me.” Romans 15:1-3 (Berean Study Bible)

~

Be Blessed

For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope. Romans 15:4 (Berean Study Bible)

Beloved Of The KING

Now may the God of endurance and encouragement grant you harmony with one another in Christ Jesus, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:5-6 (Berean Study Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

[SIC]

On 6/17/2016 at 1:22 PM, post said:

me too. everyone has mental issues. serious ones. 
let me explain: 

we can broadly divide mankind into two categories, those who have received Christ and those who haven't. 

first, those who have not believed. 

the Bible has a lot of things to say about their minds; here's just a few:
 

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(Romans 1:21-22)

So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
(Ephesians 4:17-19)

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see 
the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
(2 Corinthians 4:4) 

The LORD knows the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.
(Psalm 94:11) 

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, 
nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
(Titus 1:15)

here's the scriptural picture of the mental state of all mankind under the influence of the spirit of this age, by the god of this age:
 

• their minds and consciences are corrupted.
• their thinking is futile and vain.
• they are blinded.
• their hearts are hardened.
• they are ignorant & have lost all sensitivity.
• they think they are wise, but are foolish.

folks, that is unhealthy. that is mental issues. people have serious, serious problems in their minds and their way of thinking -- they are all "nuts" in a way that goes far beyond just mild personality quirks. that's how the Bible describes us: all of us.

second, we who have believed. 

when we heard and believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that Spirit began on ongoing work in us. first of all, that "belief" is an activity of our mind. that "hearing" involved understanding, a thing that happened in our mind. we can't 'receive' a gospel that we do not comprehend: Christianity is an intellectual belief, not an emotional one. the Bible calls the heart 'deceitfully wicked above all things' but we as having believed - in some of those same verses above - are encouraged not to walk after the same way of thinking that we formerly were in. 

yes, we formerly were in. if we have believed and received the Holy Ghost, then all of us were at one time just as ignorant, corrupted, futile and vain in our thinking. wecould not receive God because we could not have any knowledge of Him until He revealed it to us: our belief and our faith in Him are gifts from God, His calling in us, who set us apart before the beginning of the world, predestining us to become an inheritance for the Son, a love-gift to Him who bought our redemption with His blood.
we could not seek God because we could not know Him, because our minds, too, were seriously ill. 

we were every bit as mentally ill as everyone else in the whole world. 
we commonly talk about this as a 'spiritual problem' but see, the Bible talks about this as a mental problem as well: the spirit is not disconnected from the rest of the man! and all of us by the time we are adults have spent tens of thousands of hours being indoctrinated by the spirit of the age into a corrupt way of thinking, building up in us a mentally unstable, irrational and vain state of mind. 
we have come to know a Great Physician, praise God!!! -- but if this redemption meant our minds were automatically and forever completely healed, then would the scriptures include so much encouragement and teaching that we should be careful not to continue in these corrupt, mentally-ill ways of thinking? if we were already fully "sane" as it were, would it be necessary for the Spirit to say to us this? 
 

Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. 
(Romans 12:2)

i'm told that the verb tense here for "renewed" indicates an ongoing process. it is not a one-time deal. we still have the residual effects of the corrupt, vain, mentally unstable, irrational mind-sickness in us that we all were redeemed out of. that is why we need to always be 'mindful' to no longer be pressed into the mold of the spirit of the age, and have our minds instead daily renewed, regenerated, and built up in the truth. 
that is the only way we can "discern" the will of God -- and look, again, "discernment" is a thing that goes on in our minds, not in our hearts. it is a cerebral process, not an emotional one! 

we have the mind of Christ, it is true, amen! (1 Corinthians 2:16) -- but this is not saying that we all think as Christ does. no, "His thoughts are higher than our thoughts" is still true. 
we have the mind of Christ, but we have this through the Spirit that dwells within us, through which God has begun a work of transformation and renewal that is as yet unfinished (Romans 8:23, etc) but will be one day complete, when He returns and reconciles all things. 
meanwhile -- we have two laws within us, and we are of two minds: the old way of thinking, which is corrupt and altogether mentally ill, and the new mind that is of God through His spirit given to us by Jesus Christ. these are at war with each other within our hearts and minds: we are schizo, with two radically different ways of thinking opposing each other inside our heads. the scriptures teach us that we should be clinging to one and despising the other; this is the work of God within us, the renewal that goes on each day -- the "therapy" of our Great Physician, our Great Psychologist. 

but we are by no means out of "therapy" yet -- none of you have "arrived." 

you're mentally ill, still. i am, you are -- all of us are. 
we are far better off, having begun the process of recovery, and we have a sure hope that it will be complete, but if anyone thinks they do not have a problem... 


well you know what they say "admitting you have a problem is half the battle" 

Agreed 

[DARRELX]

On 6/17/2016 at 5:52 PM, post said:

me too. everyone has mental issues. serious ones. 
let me explain: 

we can broadly divide mankind into two categories, those who have received Christ and those who haven't. 

first, those who have not believed. 

the Bible has a lot of things to say about their minds; here's just a few:
 

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
(Romans 1:21-22)

So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.
(Ephesians 4:17-19)
 

"Due to the hardening of their hearts."

There is the rub. I think it is first and for most a heart problem. 

Maybe we could divide mankind into two groups, those who's hearts are hardened toward God and they whose hearts are soften towards God. 

[post]

 

8 hours ago, DARRELX said:

"Due to the hardening of their hearts."

There is the rub. I think it is first and for most a heart problem. 

Maybe we could divide mankind into two groups, those who's hearts are hardened toward God and they whose hearts are soften towards God. 

 

the Biblical use of the word "heart" is never referring to the cardiovasular system. it is always figurative, referring to what in modern terms we would call variously the 'psyche' or 'id' or 'subconscious'  . . the center of a person's being. it's spoken of as the thing from which thoughts arise, the thing which has emotions, which comprehends and understands, which believes. Bible concordances even give "mind" as an alternate definition for both the Hebrew and Greek words: "heart issues" are "mental issues." 
they are certainly not "musculo-skeletal." 

i feel that some people also like to shift the verbage around and call these shortcomings in ourselves by other words, but forget that it is in our weakness that His strength is revealed: because He is our Saviour. for some reason ((my guess is vanity?)) it's a lot more discomfiting to admit that your own thinking may not been flawless than it is to admit that you make mistakes with your actions. 

yet all this is to praise God - and i do pray it's convicting - because the One who took Nebudchanezzar's mind from him, so that he would be humbled, is the same One who gave it back, renewed: with knowledge of who the One True and Living God is. likewise we have a Saviour who is renewing our minds & we are being built up in the knowledge of Him, casting down imaginations, even our own, and regenerating those things which were corrupted through the flesh. so while we sojourn in the flesh, and it is weak, and that influence pervades our experiential existence on this earth - we wait for the flesh to be finally redeemed -- this isn't something to be offended by; it's a thing to thank Him joyfully for, knowing He will complete what He began, and a thing to teach us to be as He is, meek & lowly of heart, even while we are being conformed into that very image. 

Edited June 30, 2016 by post
edited because there is no "preview" function for writing replies

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, post said:

 

 

the Biblical use of the word "heart" is never referring to the cardiovasular system. it is always figurative, referring to what in modern terms we would call variously the 'psyche' or 'id' or 'subconscious'  . . the center of a person's being. it's spoken of as the thing from which thoughts arise, the thing which has emotions, which comprehends and understands, which believes. Bible concordances even give "mind" as an alternate definition for both the Hebrew and Greek words: "heart issues" are "mental issues." 
they are certainly not "musculo-skeletal." 

I don't recall anyone in the thread insisting that heart in these contexts was referring to the musculoskeletal system.

[Steve_S]

1 hour ago, post said:

i feel that some people also like to shift the verbage around and call these shortcomings in ourselves by other words, but forget that it is in our weakness that His strength is revealed: because He is our Saviour. for some reason ((my guess is vanity?)) it's a lot more discomfiting to admit that your own thinking may not been flawless than it is to admit that you make mistakes with your actions. 

Actually, as far as shifting verbiage, the bible says heart, you are the one saying mind, lol...

[FresnoJoe]

2 hours ago, post said:

the Biblical use of the word "heart" is never referring to the cardiovasular system. it is always figurative, referring to what in modern terms we would call variously the 'psyche' or 'id' or 'subconscious'  . . the center of a person's being.

it's spoken of as the thing from which thoughts arise, the thing which has emotions, which comprehends and understands, which believes. Bible concordances even give "mind" as an alternate definition for both the Hebrew and Greek words: "heart issues" are "mental issues."

 they are certainly not "musculo-skeletal."

Beloved, The Biblical Use Of Heart

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mark 12:29-31

Always Strikes To The Heart Of The Matter

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 2 Corinthians 3:3

And Never Does The Bible Use Psychological (Demonic) Talk

And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. Luke 4:33-35

As the founder of one of the most influential schools of psychological thought — analytical psychology — Carl Jung (also known as CG Jung) experienced what today we might call a form of psychosis. It probably wasn’t a complete psychotic break, because Jung still functioned in his daily life.

His psychosis began when he was 38 years old, when he started finding himself haunted by visions in his head and started hearing voices. Jung himself worried about this “psychosis” — things that today we’d might say were consistent with symptoms of schizophrenia (a term he also used to describe himself during this period).

Jung didn’t let these visions and hallucinations slow him down, and continued seeing patients and actively engaging in his professional life. In fact, he so enjoyed the unconscious mind he had unleashed, he found a way to summon it whenever he wanted. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2014/01/23/3-things-you-didnt-know-about-carl-jungs-psychosis/

To Explain God's Work Within

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

As a child he developed scruples, believing that a lot of his thought were blasphemous. He eventually concluded that God wanted him to have these thoughts just as He wanted Adam and Eve to fall. Again, this is deeply significant as Jung was later to believe that wholeness means integrating the good and evil parts of one's personality.

Apart from his father, Jung had eight uncles who were Clergymen and it was therefore expected that he would be called to the ministry. But by then he had developed an interest in philosophy and he decided to study medicine in order to become a Psychiatrist.

At medical school he developed his interest in Spiritualism. His doctoral thesis was a study of a young medium, a cousin of his, who in her trances claimed that she was possessed by the personality of a much older man.

In 1907, Jung published his work The psychology of Dementia Praecox. Sigmund Freud became interested and invited him to Vienna. The two met and a strong emotional relationship developed between them. Jung saw in Freud the much needed father-figure and Freud was at first to regard Jung as his natural successor in the psychoanalytical movement. He was Freud's close collaborator for a period of five years between 1907 and 1912. But it all ended in tears when Jung disagreed with Freud's belief in the sexual basis of neurosis. The authoritarian Freud was most certainly unimpressed by this dissent.

Following this break with Freud, he came close to a mental breakdown. He deliberately allowed his irrational side to function freely and he kept detailed notes of his strange experiences, dreams and visions. Certainly many strange events were reported around this time. His house felt haunted, his daughters claimed to have seen ghosts and he himself saw a crowd of spirits bursting into the house. As they disappeared, he went into a three day state of automatic writing leading to the production of his work entitled The seven sermons.

Jung was visited by a spirit guide who he named Philemon, a "pagan who brought with him an Egypto-Hellenistic atmosphere with a Gnostic coloration." Although he may have suggested that the spirit guide was a figment of his imagination, in truth, as far as he was concerned it was a real being, "an old man with the horns of a bull. I was walking up and down the garden with him and to me he was what the Indians call a Guru." He also became acquainted with another spirit guide named Ka. "Ka's expression had something demonic about it - one might almost say Mephistopholean." This is a highly pertinent observation as Jung, like Freud, was fascinated by the Faust-Mephistopheles legend about the doctor who sold his soul to the devil in order to obtain secret knowledge. Jung had by now obtained a whole series of messages from his spirit guides which were to determine the nature of his beliefs. The Jungian expert Doctor Anthony Storr concluded: "Jung thought of these spirit guides as existing in an imperishable world and manifesting themselves from time to time through the psyche of an individual." https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4676

Us

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Ezekiel 36-26

Jung is often criticised by religious thinkers for his poor theology and perennial philosophy. They are often correct, but they can also miss the main point. Jung was clear that his analytical psychology was not a new religion, neither was he a guru. "Psychology is concerned with the act of seeing and not with the construction of new religious truths," he wrote.

So its role is to provide a language for grappling with what's at stake. "Since the stars have fallen from heaven and our highest symbols have paled, a secret life holds sway in the unconscious. That is why we have a psychology today, and why we speak of the unconscious. All this would be quite superfluous in an age or culture that possessed symbols."

Symbols do die. "Why have the antique gods lost their prestige and their effect upon human souls? It was because the Olympic gods had served their time and a new mystery began: God became man." Which raises the question of whether the Christian dispensation has now served its time too and we await a new mystery. Perhaps we do live on the verge of a new age, of another transformation of humanity. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/18/how-to-believe-jung-religion

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

[post]

you're kinda way off topic there Joe. 


& you still haven't told me what you think it means that Paul has to talk to born-again believers in an "human way" 'because of the weakness of their flesh'  . . . ? 

i love how often you post scripture, but sometimes i think it can act as a bit of a smokescreen; we all love scripture - but there's a certain effect your manner has - sometimes i come away from reading your posts with the distinct impression that you haven't said anything at all, but because you've simply put scripture from all kinds of context up, without any explanation of them, in my head i'm free to think i agree with you because i'm making my own associations -- which may be completely contrary to your own, not having shared them. 

for example the couple of posts you replied to my question above. they seem like nice replies -- because there is a lot of scripture. they seem agreeable -- because they are a lot of scripture, and the Word is acceptable and perfect.  but as a reply, it's all contextless scripture, and ultimately you haven't answered coherently at all. if you remove the contextless scriptural quotes from the second reply, it came across to me as actually a bit belligerent: you kinda just say "i didn't stutter" in reply to my pressing you for an actual explanation that addresses the question instead of contextless, non-topical quotes. 

i think you've missed the point -- my question is not about the analogy that Paul was using or what he was meaning to convey by it, but about why he had to use an analogy in the first place and why he explained it as "human" + the fact that he is not talking to the unregenerate. 
i *think* you have because it's hard to get a straight answer from you. in a manner of speaking. 

i'm sorry, but if  you care to actually reply, you may have to use your actual words. 

if that cramps your style, that's cool too.
w/e. 

but don't stop with the scripture. we love that.
just that sometimes i feel like it can be a bit of slight-of-hand or like a politician smoothly tossing out buzzwords without actually saying anything of substance. the audience hears what they want to hear and if they aren't paying close attention, they think you're the one who said it. 
in particular here, you still ain't given me a satisfactory reply. 

or maybe i'm just so far gone, mentally, that i ain't comprehending what you're telling me
hahaha