TrevorL Posted August 4, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted August 4, 2016 48 minutes ago, WilliamL said: Ezekiel 38 has nothing to do with the King of the North of Daniel 11. Daniel 11:40ff. deals with events leading up to the Trib; Ezekiel 38-39 deals with events during the close of the Wrath. Greetings again WilliamL, I appreciate your response and the difficulty of piecing all these pieces together and the resultant many views on the sequence. This may be your understanding of the sequence of events, and your confidence "has nothing to do with ...", but my assessment is that there is only one King of the North and that the events depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40b-45 are snapshots of the same event. I also believe that these same events are depicted in Zechariah 14, Revelation 16:12-16 and other Scripture. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted August 4, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,112 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,551 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted August 4, 2016 13 hours ago, TrevorL said: my assessment is that there is only one King of the North and that the events depicted in Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40b-45 are snapshots of the same event. I also believe that these same events are depicted in Zechariah 14, Revelation 16:12-16 and other Scripture. Ezekiel 38, Zech. 14, and Rev. 16 and 19, yes. Dan. 11:40 - 12:1ff., no. Dan. 12:1 clearly tells of the beginning of the Tribulation, the time of trouble such as never was, which is soon coming: the beginning of the End Times. Ezekiel 38-39 tells of a time unlike today, when people will be living pastoral lives in unwalled and ungated communities in Israel. They are then attacked by armies of horsemen, which horses the birds thereafter eat, as Rev. 19 also says. This is therefore clearly the end of the judgments of the End Times, after the earth has already become depopulated by many physical cataclysms upon earth, and by the wars, famines, and plagues. Therefore, civilization has by that time lost most of its technology, and has reverted back to more primitive modes of existence, including armies mounted upon horses, and most people living in agricultural villages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted August 5, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted August 5, 2016 Greetings again WilliamL, 15 hours ago, WilliamL said: Ezekiel 38, Zech. 14, and Rev. 16 and 19, yes. Dan. 11:40 - 12:1ff., no. I can appreciate how you can arrive at a different sequence, emphasising and building upon various pieces of detail. But despite this I will hold onto my view of these being parallel for the moment. 15 hours ago, WilliamL said: Dan. 12:1 clearly tells of the beginning of the Tribulation, the time of trouble such as never was, which is soon coming: the beginning of the End Times. But Daniel 11:40 states that the events depicted in v40-45 are “the time of the end”. I believe that some of the events depicted in Daniel 12 are overlapping Daniel 11:40-45. In other words I believe that the resurrection occurs before the King of the North is destroyed 11:45. 15 hours ago, WilliamL said: Ezekiel 38-39 tells of a time unlike today, when people will be living pastoral lives in unwalled and ungated communities in Israel. They are then attacked by armies of horsemen, which horses the birds thereafter eat, as Rev. 19 also says. This is therefore clearly the end of the judgments of the End Times, after the earth has already become depopulated by many physical cataclysms upon earth, and by the wars, famines, and plagues. Therefore, civilization has by that time lost most of its technology, and has reverted back to more primitive modes of existence, including armies mounted upon horses, and most people living in agricultural villages. I would be reticent to rely upon the language of horses in warfare to establish the sequence. This is written initially for the audience that heard the prophecy, using terms that they could understand. Isaiah speaks of beating swords into ploughs, but we understand the inference that warfare will cease and the huge wealth spent on armaments will be turned to agriculture. But in the days of Isaiah steel or iron was scarce and they would improvise their ploughs for swords before a battle, and after remodify them for ploughing. I do not believe the present walls in Israel are meant to serve the same as walls around a city achieved in the time of the prophet. No present existing wall would stop an invading army using modern weapons and equipment, while in the days of the prophets they besieged a city for 2-3 years before it fell. My belief is that Ezekiel 38 aptly describes the return of the Jews to their land and their present position in the land as agriculturalists and traders, and their confidence in their military security. Kind regards Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted August 5, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,112 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,551 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted August 5, 2016 9 hours ago, TrevorL said: On 8/4/2016 at 8:04 AM, WilliamL said: Dan. 12:1 clearly tells of the beginning of the Tribulation, the time of trouble such as never was, which is soon coming: the beginning of the End Times. I believe that some of the events depicted in Daniel 12 are overlapping Daniel 11:40-45. In other words I believe that the resurrection occurs before the King of the North is destroyed 11:45. But Daniel 11:40 states that the events depicted in v40-45 are “the time of the end”. I believe that some of the events depicted in Daniel 12 are overlapping Daniel 11:40-45. In other words I believe that the resurrection occurs before the King of the North is destroyed 11:45. The time of the end includes everything from the birth pangs, the Trib and the Rapture through to the very end of the end, when Jesus physically returns to the Mount of Olives. Everything from 11:40 onward tells of events in their sequential order, just like everything else from 11:1 onward does. 9 hours ago, TrevorL said: I would be reticent to rely upon the language of horses in warfare to establish the sequence. This is written initially for the audience that heard the prophecy, using terms that they could understand. ... I do not believe the present walls in Israel are meant to serve the same as walls around a city achieved in the time of the prophet. No present existing wall would stop an invading army using modern weapons ... My belief is that Ezekiel 38 aptly describes the return of the Jews to their land and their present position in the land... Like so many, you want to explain away the testimony of the text. Birds don't eat trucks and tanks and other instruments of modern warfare. The text says here and in Rev 19 that the birds will eat "the FLESH" of horses, and that is precisely what it means. Likewise, the text says, Ezek. 38:11 ...a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’— and that is precisely what it means. Nothing in the verse above describes the Jews in "their present position in the land," like you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted August 7, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted August 7, 2016 (edited) Greetings again WilliamL, On 6/08/2016 at 1:33 AM, WilliamL said: The time of the end includes everything from the birth pangs, the Trib and the Rapture through to the very end of the end, when Jesus physically returns to the Mount of Olives. Even in the above short statement there is evidence that we have a different overview of the sequence and detail of the events. I do not believe in the rapture (as it is generally described) and I believe that the return of Jesus to the Mount of Olives is NOT the very end of the end, but early in the sequence of events. On 6/08/2016 at 1:33 AM, WilliamL said: Everything from 11:40 onward tells of events in their sequential order, just like everything else from 11:1 onward does. I agree that Daniel 11:40-45 is sequential, but I believe that Daniel 12:1 is positioned in the middle of Daniel 11:40-45. The invasion from the north through the Holy Land and into Egypt and then a return thrust back into Jerusalem will be the time of trouble for the inhabitants of the Holy Land. My understanding of Daniel 11:40-45 is that in 1917 the King of the South, Britain and Commonwealth countries pushed at the then King of the North Turkey and drove them out of the land. Seeing you like horses, one phase of this pushing was when our Australian farmers riding their stock horses made a successful charge at Beer-Sheba and overran the Turkish position. This overall event of removing the Turks from Holy Land is part of the larger series of events mentioned in Revelation 16:15 the drying up of the Euphrates River, that is the complete contraction of the Turkish Empire, and this started in the early 1800s. The last phase of his drying up will be when a new King of the North comes against Turkey and overthrows it, and from Ezekiel 38 I suggest that this new power will be Russia. One voice of protest at the northern invasion is the Merchants of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof. While in 1917 Britain was involved as a land based military force in pushing Turkey, the passage in Ezekiel 38 seems to indicate a naval power, and again I believe that this will be Britain. On 6/08/2016 at 1:33 AM, WilliamL said: Like so many, you want to explain away the testimony of the text. Birds don't eat trucks and tanks and other instruments of modern warfare. The text says here and in Rev 19 that the birds will eat "the FLESH" of horses, and that is precisely what it means. Likewise, the text says, Ezek. 38:11 ...a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’— and that is precisely what it means. Nothing in the verse above describes the Jews in "their present position in the land," like you say. I will let you grapple with the ‘horses’ concept and the un-walled villages. Evidently part of Isaiah 2:2-4 is inscribed on the wall at the UN building, but I doubt that anyone suggests that swords and ploughs are meant to be literal. We also use the term “guns or butter”. The reverse of Isaiah 2 is found in Joel, where at the beginning of the time of trouble they start to turn ploughs into swords. Does this fit into your literal view of some of these terms depicting warfare, and does the Joel reference fit in with your sequence? One thing that may change is if the Arabs and Israel arrive at a comprehensive peace treaty, allowing Israel to feel more at ease. I am happy with my present understanding of Ezekiel 38, but some understanding of the detail of all these prophecies could become sharper as time progresses. Kind regards Trevor Edited August 7, 2016 by TrevorL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorL Posted August 11, 2016 Group: Non-Trinitarian Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 308 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 139 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/13/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/14/1944 Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) Greetings GoldenEagle, On 6/24/2016 at 10:33 PM, GoldenEagle said: I'd never heard this before. What do you think? I have listened/watched a video today by most probably the same people. This one is from a UK source. I found it very interesting, well presented with a lot of documentation. The subject was “Brexit and the Bible – What next?” Kind regards Trevor Edited May 6, 2017 by OneLight Removed YouTube Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrolMan Posted September 20, 2016 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 138 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 82 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/01/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/15/1941 Share Posted September 20, 2016 On 6/24/2016 at 9:46 PM, The_Patriot2016 said: I think many people also applied these same scriptures to britain and germany in world war 2.....food for thought. They sure did! Good food for thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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