Mystery of Noah's Flood

[Seve]

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

I'm getting the feeling that Seve believes God created Piltdown men, prehistoric men, all living things that move came from the ocean, as evolutionists believe? That angels did not father the giants? I'm trying to show that God created man and woman perfect and the giants were because of the sin of angels. maybe I am misunderstanding his posts?

 

1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

Thank you kwikphilly. I don't want to offend or hurt anyone especially Seve, Just trying to point out that the Word of God is pure, its the truth, and it explains everything in detail if we get all the Scriptures on a doctrine being discussed and get then and understand them in their correct order.

Hazard,

Angels are ministering spirits - not flesh - and would not be able to perform sex with Humans simply because they don't have flesh and bone - as documented in Gen 6:3 -so much so producing offspring together. That is just based on wild imagination of men.

Either you are not reading properly or really having a problem understanding my posts - based on your rebuttals - which is most of the time, out of context to the issues at hand that you are contending for discussion. JMHO

Below are my recorded stand for your convenience and review - to see, if you really understand my position of the matter before you arguing about it. Based on your arguments, seemingly, you are way off the left field - and not directly addressing the issues at hand.

Quote

There are many Religionists on this forum who continue to teach their doctrinal faith (based on ancient wild imagination of men) that the sons of God were Angels (???), but the context of the verse below completely eliminates Angels since the LORD is speaking of His disgust when He saw Humankind (Adam's descendants) begin to marry the sons of God (prehistoric people) which HE knew would bring Violence   and Death to Human kind, for thousands of years into the FUTURE. 

That is when He cut Human lifespans almost 90%. The older a heathen gets, the meaner he gets.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he ALSO is FLESH: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty  years.

Angels are NOT Flesh, but sons of God were (prehistoric people). Gen 6:4

 

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EVERY living creature that moves, came forth from the Water, on the 5th Day Gen 1:21 and Science AGREES and dates the SAME event as beginning some 3.7 Billion years ago, in man's time. 

The sons of God (prehistoric people) diverged from Chimps some 6 Million years ago, but they were NOT Humans because they did NOT  have Adam's high level of intelligence which like God to know good and evil. Gen 3:22 They came forth from the water just like any other animal.

Adam was made some 10 Billion years earlier on the first Earth, which was totally destroyed in the Flood. He was the ONLY being made on the 3rd  Day 

Gen 2:4-7 (as Jesus meet) and therefore, could NOT have evolved from Apes because the FIRST Ape was not  made for millions of years AFTER Adam was formed of the  dust of the ground Gen 1:21. That's God's Truth. 

 

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God also tells us HOW and WHEN the sons of God (prehistoric people) on this Earth inherited the Human intelligence which is unique to Adam and  his descendants. God calls prehistoric people whose origin was in the water on Day 5, the sons of God.

The sons of God married and produced the Humans on the first Earth, which was destroyed in the Flood. Genesis 4 tells us that Cain married and produced Enoch, his son, with a woman who could ONLY have evolved from the water, as God told us. Today's Science confirms that EVERY living creature MUST have water to live  since EVERY cell in our body would die without it.

No ancient man traditional view could have possibly known this. Read it for yourself:

Gen. 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men (Heb -Adam), and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The giants were giants intellectually as is shown at the end of the verse. They were the Humans of the first Earth, and they had agriculture, smelting, city building, and technology with little of NO evolution. Adam farmed with NO evolution, and Cain built a city with NO evolution, showing that Human  intelligence is Superior to ANY creature made from the water.

The fulfillment of the prophecy of "and also after that" was fulfilled when Noah and his family brought the human intelligence of Adam to Northern Mesopotamia in the mountains of  Ararat. This happened some 10k years ago and the FIRST human cities and the FIRST agriculture,and the ONLY Human  civilization on our Earth, PROVES it.*

SUDDENLY, the sons of God, (prehistoric mankind) evolved the Human intelligence of Adam and changed from animal to Human intelligence. Prehistoric mankind settled down, built houses, cities, and developed math and writing, proving that anything is possible IF you have the intelligence of the first Human, Adam. Below is the  empirical record of the arrival of the first Humans on this Earth:

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE....http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...lemap.html

In less than 1% of the time since the sons of God diverged from "Chimps", on this Planet, they went from Caves to the Moon and back, and yet Evolutionists seem to betotally ignorant of this Fact. Humans also were contaminated with the ERVs of the common ancestor of Chimps BUT Humans did NOT evolve from the common ancestor, but from our own common ancestor whose name is Adam.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Seve

[kwikphilly]

They are what "he" believes,his personal interpretation & unlike many we hear,       and we do hear a lot 

There have been many discussions on the Sons of God/Daughters of Men,,,,it can be a controversial Topic,,,,,,some hold fast to the belief that the Fallen Angels(Neph) have mixed with the women (daughters of men)& that is on view,others believe that is is the 2 lineages ,one from Cain(man),one from Seth(God),,,,,,,2 different perspectives & that is okay,,,,,,,,,,

Seve has somehow stuck prehistoric people in there(never heard that one),,,,,,& then talking about mans DNA being part ape??????? I have no clue where he came up with this & that is okay too,it is just not Gods Word,,,,,,,,it is unique

[HAZARD]

Seve wrote;

[The sons of God (prehistoric people) diverged from Chimps some 6 Million years ago, but they were NOT Humans because they did NOT  have Adam's high level of intelligence which like God to know good and evil. Gen 3:22 They came forth from the water just like any other animal.}

Sorry to burst you bubble Seve. Read John 1:1-3.

  John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
   

V. 2, The same was in the beginning with God.
 

V. 3, All things were made by Him, and without Him; WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE that was made.

Show us one Scripture which teaches prehistoric people diverged from chimps some 6 million years ago, and where anything came forth from the water just like any other animal?

 

[HAZARD]

12 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

They are what "he" believes,his personal interpretation & unlike many we hear,       and we do hear a lot 

He does occasionally write, .  .  .  .  sometimes .  .  .  .  JMHO,

[Seve]

14 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Seve wrote;

[The sons of God (prehistoric people) diverged from Chimps some 6 Million years ago, but they were NOT Humans because they did NOT  have Adam's high level of intelligence which like God to know good and evil. Gen 3:22 They came forth from the water just like any other animal.}

Sorry to burst you bubble Seve. Read John 1:1-3.

  John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
   

V. 2, The same was in the beginning with God.
 

V. 3, All things were made by Him, and without Him; WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE that was made.

Show us one Scripture which teaches prehistoric people diverged from chimps some 6 million years ago, and where anything came forth from the water just like any other animal?

 

Hazard,

You are being dishonest. How many times will I tell you that ALL MOVING CREATURE WAS BROUGHT FORTH FROM THE WATERS as documented in the Scripture - ref Gen 1:21 - including the prehistoric people - called Cro Magnon.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

v21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind:  and God saw that it was good.

Your argument is distorted and fallacious.

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Seve

[kwikphilly]

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Genesis 1:20-21King James Version (KJV)

²⁰ And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

²¹ And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

No Seve,the Word of God does NOT say all moving creatures was brought forth etc...   it DOES say the waters brought forth the "moving creatures" that hath life,,,,let me explain,,,,,those would be "fish" & the creatures that live in the ocean       And God crated birds(those would be the winged creatures0 & other flying things,like bats probably,,,,,,theres no hidden mystery here,no cro magnon(early homo sapiens) in the Bible,,,,,,,

Note that when it says "after their kind",,,,that means the ocean creatures are ONE kind,,,,,,,animals are another kind,etc,,,,,,,

And BTW,no one here is arguing,there is no argument or debate,you are free to believe whatever you wish,it is just not Gods Word & nobody will agree to what you would like us to,,,,,,case closed

[Seve]

26 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

No Seve,the Word of God does NOT say all moving creatures was brought forth etc...   it DOES say the waters brought forth the "moving creatures" that hath life,,,,let me explain,,,,,those would be "fish" & the creatures that live in the ocean       And God crated birds(those would be the winged creatures0 & other flying things,like bats probably,,,,,,theres no hidden mystery here,no cro magnon(early homo sapiens) in the Bible,,,,,,,

Note that when it says "after their kind",,,,that means the ocean creatures are ONE kind,,,,,,,animals are another kind,etc,,,,,,,

And BTW,no one here is arguing,there is no argument or debate,you are free to believe whatever you wish,it is just not Gods Word & nobody will agree to what you would like us to,,,,,,case closed

Kwikphilly,

Of course its says that "all moving creature that hath life". Prehistoric people has life and moveth - originated and evolved from the waters. Even science agrees with the Scripture that all living creatures / species originated from the waters Gen 1:21.

I guess you also need to dispute your issue with the Scripture and Science. 

Of course with the exception of Adam, who was made from the dust of the ground on the 3rd day - AFTER the mist watered the whole face of the ground.

But as I have said before, you can believe whatever you want. 

 

God bless 

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by Seve

[Guest Robert]

 

19 hours ago, Seve said:

[Gen 1:20-21 KJV] 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and EVERY living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

So, who do you think created the homo sapiens called Cro Magnon, Satan?    I bet, you really don't think they move, do you?

The term "Cro-Magnon" is not even really used anymore:

http://archaeology.about.com/od/earlymansites/a/cro_magnon.htm

Whatever differences between them and "modern man" are slight at best (such as a slightly heavier femur, explainable by people having to walk a lot more than we do now), so what's the difference?

 

Then, there's this:

14 hours ago, Seve said:

Can somebody explain HOW an Olive tree can germinate in the mud of a flooded Earth, grow up into a tree and put forth leaves in  One week.  Olive trees can take up to a year to germinate. 

That could have been another mystery, if, one believes that the Great Flood actually happened on our present world, isn’t it!?

17 hours ago, Kan said:

The dove came back with an olive leaf which was plucked as the Bible states. It does not say it came back with a branch in its mouth, and neither does it say that the dove plucked it from an olive tree. At least not in the KJV. It is presumed by some people that the dove plucked a branch or olive leaf from a tree. But the Bible does not say that, it says that the olive leaf had been plucked. By the dove? no, by the elements, the wind, the tempest or whatever. It may have been floating high in space during the flood and settled a year later.

Noah wanted to know if the water had dried from off the land. He knew that the dove walks on dry ground and seeks to peck at seeds or whatever, and if the ground is wet it prefers to return to the dry deck of the ark as it did the first time. It does not look for a tree to start plucking olive leaves. A giraffe does that.

So your mystery of the olive tree growing in one week comes from speed reading.

Hello Ken,

Sorry, I disagree. Your assumption of my post of the mystery of the olive leaf that came only from  "speed reading" is unacceptable.

Gen 8:10 10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; 11 And the dove came in to him in the evening;  and, lo, in her mouth [was] an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

The point is... The olive leaf pluck off in the mouth of the Dove could not have come from Adam’s world (as my premises alluded to above quote). It is a Biblical fact that Adam’s world was already destroyed in the flood after 150 days and is gone forever. 2 Peter 3:5- after Noah’s Ark landed at the mountains of Ararat. 

IOW, the olive leaf came from our present world - in the area somewhere in the mountains of Ararat.

Perhaps, you also missed reading the basis of the premises of my Scriptural analysis below from previous postings....

The Flood began on Feb 17th of Noah's 600th year. Gen 7:11 The Ark rested on the mountains of Ararat n July 17th or 150 days after the flood began. Gen 8:4 

[Gen 8:4 KJV] 4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

The Ark was above the highest mountains of Adam's world. The firmament, in which Adam's Earth was contained, end up floating in LakeVan,Turkey,   the largest Lake in the area. It's in the mountains of Ararat some 75 miles wide.

After 150 days, the firmament filled with water, it sank, and the entire FIRST Heaven, and all of it's inhabitants, were destroyed in the Flood, except those in the Ark. 

The Ark was covered and floated out the top of Adam's firmament into the largest Lake in the area, as the firmament sank. This explains a way for a 450 foot Ark to be above the highest mountains of Adam's world...AND....in the mountains of Ararat on the SAME 150th day after the flood began as Gen 7:24 AND Gen 8:4 tell us

Therefore, your multiple assumptions ref: underlined premises above could no longer be applied / valid, simply, because, the Ark is now in  our present world and not on the first heaven - Adam's world. (based on the given premise above)

 

God bless

 

(I had to put your quote back together; the way you had it was unquotable when I tried to quote it using Worthy's system, as it would show a blank bar. You may want to fix that in your post).

As for the theory you're positing here, Scripture never says anything about any "firmament sinking". In fact, it never says that the "first Heaven" sank and is now beneath us.

I really did not want to have to get this technical, as I was hoping others showing you scripture in context might help you see why your take on this isn't working. But since you won't listen, it's time to go through this bit by bit:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a third day.  Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day. "  (Genesis 1:1-19, NASB, emphasis mine)

 

The Hebrew word for "expanse" is birkia' which denotes an area; the Hebrew word for "heaven" is  hashamayim, which means "sky". Since more than one "heaven" is indicated by the term "heavens", only one heaven is indicated beneath the "waters above" and only water and dry land are stated as being beneath the "heaven" that is below the "waters above", there's only one place for the other "heavens": above the "waters above". In other words, You would have dry land and the waters below, the heaven, the "waters above" and then the heavens.

There's nothing beneath the Earth, such as "another firmament", water -filled or otherwise. Scripture never says "the waters were gathered beneath the Earth". And there is no indication today that there is a water-filled expanse beneath the crust of the planet. "The waters were gathered into one place means exactly what is says: the waters were pulled away into one place so that dry land could emerge. There was never another entire "world on top of this one" that was replete with mountains and everything else. God had no need to create more than one Earth, and had He done so, what would have been the point? It would have required two suns, two moons, two entire sets of stars, with one set placed in the "first heaven" according to the "flat earth" theory that some adhere to. Scripture never indicates multiple suns, moons or anything like that: "the greater light" and "the lesser light" are all scripture says. And had there been a world "above us" and just once set of lights, the land above would have blocked out most of the light, making life on the "first heaven" impossible anyways.

 

(Here, we are not inserting what we think Scripture should say; what we are doing is letting Scripture speak, and then forming our basis on what is says. This is what exegesis is, as opposed to eisegesis (reading into Scripture our own ideas). Scripture tells us what happened, and we form our conclusions based on that. Assuming that the "first heaven" flooded and we are now living in the "second heaven" is reading what we think should be in there, which scripture does not indicate by any means.)

 

Additionally, your comment "the Ark was covered" makes no sense whatsoever in any context: the Ark was a ship, not a submarine:

"On the very same day Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark, they and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, all sorts of birds. So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed it behind him.Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered. All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind; of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark. The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days." (Genesis 7:13-24, NASB, emphasis mine)

Nowhere does it say here that the Ark was "covered" by water.

 

As for the question of "olive trees underwater": A study by Michigan State University finds that many trees are flood-resistant, and can survive months underwater. The link to the study is here:

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/flood_tolerant_trees

While some listed would die after a few days of submersion, that is not all of them let alone the seeds that they produce. So it doesn't stand that all plant life would have been killed by the Flood.

 

On another note: the Hebrew word used for "The Earth" in Genesis 7 is the same one used in Genesis 1: haaretz, which means "Earth, land"; this indicates that the whole of the Earth is being described, and not just "the land" in a certain area. Otherwise, the Creation account would only be describing the creation of a part of the Earth, and not the whole planet as the sweep of Genesis 1 indicates. This renders the "Local Flood" theory unscriptural and not consistent with the Bible.

 

Finally, concerning Peter's words in 2 Peter:

"This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you in which I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the words spoken beforehand by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior spoken by your apostles. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."  (2 Peter 3: 1-9, NASB, emphasis mine)

(On a side note: the Greek word kosmos  (from where we get our word "cosmos"), is used in this passage as well for "the world", reinforcing the meaning of the term "the world" in Genesis 6 as Peter would have been familiar with the Genesis account.

We do not see here that "the heavens" were destroyed by water, nor do we see it was ever destroyed in Genesis. What Peter is talking about here is the destruction of the entire literal Earth (atmosphere and physical planet); the Greek word for "heaven", ouranoi  translates to "the sky ". What is being described here fits whit what we read in Revelation 21: 

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." (Revelation 21: 1-4, NASB, emphasis mine)

In this passage, John uses the Greek word ouranon, which means "the sky", the same term Peter used in his letter.

What Peter is telling us in 2 Peter 3 is that the world (in the sense of the world that Noah had known and not "the first heaven") was destroyed by a flood, but the physical world did not cease to exist. The societies, geographical layout and weather conditions were utterly removed, but it did not indicate a different "realm" or Earth. That kind of cessation and replacement though is indicated by John's passage in Revelation 21, which indicates an entirely new heaven and Earth a entirely new planet and not just a "heaven" layer that man would be pushed into.

In conclusion, looking at the Scriptures in context (reading the verses before and after the verse we want in order to see how that verse was intended, what connotations it has and how it fits into the overall meaning of the chapter of Scripture in question) shows that not only is your theory not supported by the Bible, but that Scripture says the opposite of what you're claiming to say.

 

It's what happens when we try to force-fit Scripture to fit a novel fantasy, and it doesn't work.

 

Edited June 30, 2016 by RobertS
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[Seve]

Good night.... see you guys tomorrow... 

 

God bless

[Steve_S]

Seve has been banned from the thread and will be issued a warning point for the following statement:

2 hours ago, Seve said:

Hazard,

You are being dishonest. How many times will I tell you that ALL MOVING CREATURE WAS BROUGHT FORTH FROM THE WATERS as documented in the Scripture - ref Gen 1:21 - including the prehistoric people - called Cro Magnon.

Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

v21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind:  and God saw that it was good.

Your argument is distorted and fallacious.

 

The first comment is a direct ToS violation, the second is borderline. It's far better to avoid any personal implications in discussion such as this. Everybody please remember to always keep it civil!

God bless,

Steve