remove your sandals . . ?

[post]

Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. And Moses said, 
“I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” 
When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush,
“Moses, Moses!” 
And he said, 
“Here I am.”
Then he said, 
“Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 

And he said, 
“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” 
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
(Exodus 3:1-6)

as far as i know, this is the only place where we see this practice of removing ones shoes on "holy ground" in all of scripture. i realize that from this some groups have made it a practice for some places, but scripturally this practice doesn't have precedent in the Bible, and it is not continued after this point, not as recorded in scripture. 

so why did Moses remove his sandals?
and why was he instructed to do so?

two things i think to probably bear in mind: 
 

• the thing that made the place holy was not the geographic location, but the presence of God
• Moses' feet were not any more or any less "holy" than his shoes

[post]

a brother reminded me that this is actually mentioned again in scripture, so i would be wrong to say it's "never" repeated: 

When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him,
“Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” 
And he said,
“No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him,
“What does my lord say to his servant?” 
And the commander of the Lord's army said to Joshua,
“Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.”
And Joshua did so.
(Joshua 5:13-15) 

but we do not see this written in the law for people who entered the tabernacle or the temple -- right? 
so why is this given here, and why in particular to these men at these times? it doesn't seem to be a thing that is "always" commanded in the presence of God. 

[Your closest friendnt]

X

2 hours ago, post said:

Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian, and he led his flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. And Moses said, 
“I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned.” 
When the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush,
“Moses, Moses!” 
And he said, 
“Here I am.”
Then he said, 
“Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.” 

And he said, 
“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” 
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.
(Exodus 3:1-6)

as far as i know, this is the only place where we see this practice of removing ones shoes on "holy ground" in all of scripture. i realize that from this some groups have made it a practice for some places, but scripturally this practice doesn't have precedent in the Bible, and it is not continued after this point, not as recorded in scripture. 

so why did Moses remove his sandals?
and why was he instructed to do so?

two things i think to probably bear in mind: 
 

• the thing that made the place holy was not the geographic location, but the presence of God
• Moses' feet were not any more or any less "holy" than his shoes

I don't really know and I was wondering about that as long as remember.

I can only say that every time the people encounter an Angel of the Lord, they were extremely afraid. 

They were afraid of their lives, that they may die, because they had encounter holiness. 

 

Edited July 9, 2016 by Your closest friendnt
add last sentence

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, post said:

but we do not see this written in the law for people who entered the tabernacle or the temple -- right? 

I believe the priests were to wash their feet and enter barefoot into the tabernacle or temple. This was for both practical and symbolic reasons.

[post]

11 minutes ago, Ezra said:

I believe the priests were to wash their feet and enter barefoot into the tabernacle or temple. This was for both practical and symbolic reasons.

thanks for the reply. 

i know this is tradition, and taught by the rabbis that this is how the priests should have ministered ((though interestingly, today, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia and Chabbad.org, Jewish priests are to wear stockings, not go barefoot)) -- but i don't see this written as a law anywhere in scripture. so it's not clear to me that since the beginning, it is what they did -- or whether it's something scribes added to the law, which was not given, and not always practiced. 

certainly there are fine reasons for the tradition, and it's the way that respect is shown in Islam, and in Asia in Taoism & Buddhism & Shinto etc. -- but it's not given in the Torah. in the Law, priests were instructed to wash their feet, but they were not told they must be barefoot. Saul was not told to remove his sandals on the Damascus road, nor was Manoah, nor Jacob, nor Abraham -- though the Angel of the Lord spoke with all of them, and all of them were afraid, knowing they had seen God. 

i understand that there are fine reasons for the tradition, even outside of Judaism, but why isn't it given as a law, yet these two men, and these two men only, were instructed in this way only on these two occasions? is it simply taken for granted that everyone ought to know this because of these two examples? in Judaism, these two examples are the only justification from scripture ever given for a tradition. 

 

[kwikphilly]

I thought you might appreciate this

 

Quote

The priests have to wash their hands and feet before they go into the temple, the holy place. All through the Word of God, the command is, "HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD" (Exodus 28:36; 39:30; Zechariah 14:20). At the burning bush, God told Moses, "Put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground" (Exodus 3:5). Therefore, the priests enter the holy place barefooted. No shoes are worn in the tabernacle.                  http://www.godsacres.org/pg.stories.temple.html

 

[Ezra]

14 hours ago, post said:

is it simply taken for granted that everyone ought to know this because of these two examples?

That's a reasonable conclusion. I believe the practice may also be currently in vogue in the Traditionalist churches (and even the Anglican church) since they follow a liturgical pattern based on the Levitical priesthood.

[post]

2 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

I thought you might appreciate this

 

 

thanks, but as i said, i already know what talmudic teaching says -- the traditions of the scribes. 
Jesus didn't actually have nice things to say about rabbinic traditions and all the additions they made to the law given by God. that in and of itself doesn't mean that a thing is wrong simply because it is traditional, but it should give us a clue that just because a thing is traditional among the Jews doesn't mean it is given by God, either. 

the law itself tells priests to change their garments and goes into detail even about what kind of cloth all their robes should be made of, what color, where and what kind and color of tassels they should have, and how to cut their beard. 
odd, to me, that if it was so very important that they also should never wear shoes in certain places, it is not given in the law. 
don't you think? 

of course you are all free to go with the traditional additions of the scribes and the rabbis. the Jews are quite famous for careful reasoning. man's reasoning is itself also quite famous for sometimes reaching false conclusions. 
but we are not bound to rituals and ceremonies and careful reenactments of shadows, imitating substance -- we have the Spirit and do not live by the letter. 

my question isn't about what the Talmud says, or what the reasons normally given for common Arabic & Oriental practices of respect are; it's about why this should be told to Moses, who had spent 40 years in Egypt and 40 years among pagan people, no doubt learning something of their customs and cultural norms, and Joshua, who had spent 40 years at Moses' feet, learning all of Moses' idiosyncrasies and habits ((that's a clue, right?)) -- and then never written in the law for any Levite or for any proselyte Jew who came to the temple or the tabernacle. instead, we have traditions of the scribes. but we don't have law. 

so why is this given to these two, in particular? what is the Lord doing here? 
is He giving an absolute command for all subsequent encounters with the divine? ((why not then, a law, if it is law?))
or is He speaking personally to a couple men who would have had a specific cultural understanding of what this action meant?

 

[kwikphilly]

Well Brother,it is not that I didn't think you knew the teachings in the Talmud or that you did not know customs & traditions,we do have many here that do not & as I mentioned,I simply thought you would appreciate the article from "Church of God",,,,,,,,,

Personally I do not believe it had anything to do with Gods Law,He was obviously telling both Moses & Joshua that He is Holy,Sovereign God Almighty,anywhere in His Presence is Holy.........I don't see anything more to make out of it,He was speaking to them,,,,,,,If a person takes their shoes of in humility & reverence ,I don't see anything wrong with that either,,,,,,,but a "Law" ,,,no

[post]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

That's a reasonable conclusion. I believe the practice may also be currently in vogue in the Traditionalist churches (and even the Anglican church) since they follow a liturgical pattern based on the Levitical priesthood.

do you think the Lord will judge anyone for not removing their sandals when entering a place made holy by His presence -- or ever has judged anyone for this? 
since it is not written in the law anywhere, and if they did not hear the audible voice of God instructing them to do so? 

how "reasonable" is it, i am asking? 

is it that reasonable? is it that expected for every person to know and obey?

((because i kinda get the idea that you would be judged for this by certain orthodoxies, as though it is in fact a law, even though it is not written in scripture as a law))