Sequence-of-Events Analysis

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, inchrist said:

Then why do you contradict yourself now?

Care to make your mind up??

....................................................................................................................................

Lets look at the Roman Solder in Matthew 8

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 

More anomalies I suppose?

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Its just a lovely story christ told us then? So with no biblical explanation, because you say no its no? 

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The bride of Christ is not a wise virgin? Then pray tell why is Christ telling us the parable of who he is going to marry?

Nor is Judah the foolish virgin? pray tell Is Judah not a virgin? Is she not foolish?

Yes talks of 5 and 10, its rather clear you dont seem to understand the meaning of this?

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Its called double portion inheritance, again look up multitude of nations.

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I think its time for you to wake up to reality, are you aware Christ mainly spoke in parables for a reason?

He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

The secrets of God's Kingdom lie in understanding Christs parables; to you they are only parables; you see them, you hear them, but its proven you don't understand them. Perhaps put your pride away.

Shalom, inchrist.

That's why I said it had to do with TIMING! When Yeshua` first sent His disciples out, He instructed them NOT to go to the Shomroniym (the Samaritans), yet, as you noted in Matthew 10:5. Later, however, He went HIMSELF to them! It's not a contradiction; it's simply the way that His plan escalated! He was going to include them in HIS timing!

Secondly, yes, the Roman centurion was indeed another "anomaly." He was NOT your typical Roman centurion, lording his Rome-given power over the people! The Gentiles were not coming to Yeshua` by the droves! There was one or two who understood just how awesome the God of the Jews was and how that He had sent His Messiah to them! They recognized the power of God in the One called the "Son of God," power to perform the many miracles that Yeshua` performed, and they knew that they needed to be on HIS side to receive any help from Him. These were Jewish PROSELYTES, not so much to their religion but to their awesome God!

Thirdly, the prodigal son is a parable told by Yeshua` to instruct the Jewish leaders to humility and to see their need: Verse 10 is a segue into the parable from the previous parables of the one sheep lost out of the 100, being searched for, and found, and the one coin of the wedding dowry lost, being searched for, and found. These three parables were said because of these verses:

Luke 15:1-2
1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
KJV

Scandalous! So, Yeshua` said,

Luke 15:10-32
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
KJV

Now, if you want to say that the "brother of the prodigal" represented "the Pharisees and the scribes," while the "prodigal son" represented "the publicans and the sinners," that much is fine. I could agree with that assessment, but don't go NUTS with a thousand different representations! And, both "the Pharisees and the scribes" and "the publicans and the sinners" were ALL children of Israel!

Fourthly, the bridegroom (or just "groom" today) didn't marry ANY of the ten virgins (bride's maids)! They were attendants TO the bride! The point in Yeshua`s parable of the ten virgins was to stress to the listeners "BE READY!" Those who were ready participated in the wedding; those who were NOT ready were left standing out in the cold! That was the whole intent of the parable! This parable doesn't say ONE WORD about the bride! Yeshua` concludes His parable about the ten virgins with this statement:

Matthew 25:13
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
KJV

There wasn't any purpose in the usage of 5 virgins being foolish and 5 virgins being wise, except to say that about half will be one or the other!

Finally, I understand the parables of the Messiah quite well, ESPECIALLY those about the Kingdom. I know that most make the mistake that they somehow are about this time period in which we live (the "church age"), but they are actually about the age to come when Yeshua` establishes His Kingdom here on this earth. You quoted from Matthew 13 (or its synoptic equivalents):

Matthew 13:10-17
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias (Isaiah), which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
KJV

And, by way of proof,

Matthew 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV

This matches Paul's prophetic declaration in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV

So, while the Christ (the Messiah) is reigning, He shall be subduing enemies until the last enemy (death) is defeated. Then, He shall hand over the Kingdom to His Father, "that God may be all in all." So, at the end of the Messiah's Kingdom, "the angels (messengers) will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend (lead others to sin) and them which do iniquity (them who sin)," and they will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment and "be thrown into a furnace of fire," the Lake of Fire and Sulfur of Rev. 20:8-15. Then, the Messiah will turn over His Worldwide Kingdom to His Father, and "the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father," which is the new heaven and the new earth in Revelation 21:1. This all doesn't happen until AFTER Yeshua` raises those to life, "they that are Christ's at his coming."

[Retrobyter]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Jer. 31:9 For I [YHWH] am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.

Gen 48:5 “And now your two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

Reuben and Simon were the former first and second born of Israel, but were replaced by Ephraim and Manasseh, who became the new first and second born. Their father Joseph replaced Reuben as the firstborn when Reuben sinned:

1 Chr. 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright; 2 yet Judah prevailed over his brothers, and from him came a ruler, although the birthright was Joseph's...

Shalom, WilliamL.

I'm okay with this, but Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) was specifically addressing the Northern Kingdom as they were going into captivity. Still, just know that the REAL ruler, Yeshua` the Messiah, comes from Y'hudah, not from any other tribe; therefore, the argument is moot. It's important to realize that the kings (and queens) of England were NOT made so because they were from the tribe of Efrayim. British Israelism is a DISTRACTION from the truth found in God's Word, as though British royalty could compete with the coming Messiah in His absence.

[WilliamL]

 

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

On 8/11/2016 at 11:02 AM, WilliamL said:

You ignore the context, which is fully eschatological; and there is nothing to allude to Jesus being the mountain, except in your imagination.

WilliamL is talking about a physical location of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22.

Wrong, obviously: I was talking about the spiritual mountain in heaven.

2 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect

Heavenly Jerusalem is (duh) in heaven, therefore so is this mountain, and the myriads of angels that dwell there. So will those be who ascend in the Rapture, "the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven;" for the Rapture is what this passage is all about.

Heb. 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven...

Ex. 20:18 All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled/fell back [JPS] and stood at a distance.

Paul in Hebrews 18:28 is, as in other passages, teaching that God's judgments and rewards of the Exodus era were types and shadows of His judgments of the Latter Days. In the Exodus era, God spoke from an earthly mountain, but only Moses and Joshua were accounted worthy to ascend into his Presence atop the mountain. In the Latter Days, God's Presence will speak from heaven, and only the elect will be accounted worthy to ascend to heaven into his Presence atop the heavenly Mount Zion.

 

[WilliamL]

8 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

6 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Jer. 31:9 For I [YHWH] am a Father to Israel,
And Ephraim is My firstborn.

Gen 48:5 “And now your two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, who were born to you in the land of Egypt before I came to you in Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.

Reuben and Simon were the former first and second born of Israel, but were replaced by Ephraim and Manasseh, who became the new first and second born. Their father Joseph replaced Reuben as the firstborn when Reuben sinned:

1 Chr. 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel—he was indeed the firstborn, but because he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given to the sons of Joseph, the son of Israel, so that the genealogy is not listed according to the birthright; 2 yet Judah prevailed over his brothers, and from him came a ruler, although the birthright was Joseph's...

Shalom, WilliamL.

I'm okay with this, but Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) was specifically addressing the Northern Kingdom as they were going into captivity. Still, just know that the REAL ruler, Yeshua` the Messiah, comes from Y'hudah, not from any other tribe; therefore, the argument is moot. ...

The passage of Jeremiah is prophesying about the End Times, not "the Northern Kingdom as they were going into captivity." By the time of Jeremiah's prophesying, Israel had been extinguished from the scene for more than a hundred years.

God is saying that in the End Times He will still recognize the birthright/firstborn status of Ephraim. So "the argument is" not "moot."

[Marcus O'Reillius]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Wrong, obviously: I was talking about the spiritual mountain in heaven.

Not wrong.  There are physical dimensions in Heaven as well.   But the physical earthly location of Mount Zion will be right around Jerusalem.  I think it starts out as the cleft Mount of Olives which Jesus splits on the Day of the Lord as per Zechariah 14:4.

4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

This second earthquake of the sixth Seal is when Jesus touches down.  From there, He summons the 144,000 to be sealed so they can fight with Him on the Day of the Lord's Wrath which soon follows the Harvest of Rev 14:14-16.

This also then becomes the Mount Zion that the Remnant flocks to for the Sukkot, the encampment following the atoning, Yom Kippur, when the Remnant Jews learn their Messiah King is the same Servant Messiah they had rejected previously...

Isaiah 2:2 Now it will come about that
 In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3 And many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths."
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And another passage which addresses the beginning of the Millennium:

Isaiah 4:2 In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. 3 It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. 4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning, 5 then the Lord will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy. 6 There will be a shelter to give shade from the heat by day, and refuge and protection from the storm and the rain.

Mount Zion is on the earth.
Jesus will be the only "mountain" of the earth - a rock cut without human hands who smashes the statue of man's rule and grows to become a mountain.

You're very quick to judge and condemn with wrongdoing, and not disposed to allow any other opinion than your own.

So I put this out for the reader, that they may know some of the other applications of Hebrews 12:22.

[WilliamL]

57 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

There is physical dimensions in Heaven as well.

58 minutes ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

This second earthquake of the sixth Seal is when Jesus touches down.

You're way out in the ozone, and I'll leave you to it.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

No reply to Scripture, which does speak of an earthly location for Mount Zion, and figurative allegory between our Lord and the rock cut without hands becoming a mountain; just insults to a fellow brother in Christ.

That's sad.

[Sister]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Sister.

You've got to "drop the other shoe!" First of all, those sealed in Revelation 14 were sealed from the TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL! That's LITERALLY the children of Israel, the actual, physical family of Yeshua`.

Shalom Retrobyter

I ask you to take a look at the BIG picture, the whole plan of God from beginning to end, ...even what your own prophets have said to you in the days of old, did you understand their message?

 Isaiah 56:3   Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

  Isaiah 56:4   For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

  Isaiah 56:5   Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

  Isaiah 56:6   Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

  Isaiah 56:7   Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

  Isaiah 56:8   The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

 

If strangers in the days of the Law, could be joined to the house of Israel if they served the Lord by obeying his commandments, then how much so in the last days? 

And why does God say, using the Eunuchs as an example that if they obeyed his commandments, even to them would they be given a name BETTER than of sons of daughters. How can one be made better than a son or daughter?  That's a pretty strong statement!

So it's the same today, and the Lord said when he will gather the OUTCASTS of Israel, he will GATHER OTHERS to HIM, besides those that are gathered unto him, and if they be given a name BETTER than of SONS OF DAUGHTERS, then they are very ELITE, and you could say CHOSEN.

So all I ask is to look at the BIG PICTURE, and what God is actually showing us and put it all together to see what God has planned.

 

 

 

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

No where in scripture is the ameaning of oil ever referred to as taking the mark of the best, in fact you would be producing the first proof of fallibility of scripture, since Christ still referred to these foolish virgins as….. well….. virgins.

There are many ways to interpret and then apply the parable of the ten virgins.

1. You can take this figuratively in an eschatological sense where it makes the argument of an analogy of oil to faith.  Now nowhere in Scripture is it stated that oil equals faith, but that is there.
2. You can take this literally in an eschatological sense with a Mid-, Pre-Wrath, or Post-Trib position where the final waiting period of the virgins is in the last portion of the Great Tribulation and to actually, and physically BUY oil, means the foolish virgins take the mark of the beast - and so are excluded.
3. You can ignore the aspect of the oil altogether.
4. You can relate the aspect of the oil to something else altogether.
5. You can apply this parable with or without an eschatological basis.
6. You can even go so far as to make this parable a central tenet of your eschatological point of view.

All these views are available.  None can claim exclusive rights to being correct.  Your view has nothing to do with the sequence of events analysis.  However, from a literal point of view, the fact that the five foolish virgins - which can mean they have never known another God than God - didn't forget their oil - they just haven't brought enough of it when the bridegroom tarries (and that IS an important point in the parable) - so they have to take the mark of the beast and BUY some - and so they lose their place by the bride (who isn't mentioned) at the wedding ceremony - fits within the structure that linear narrative prophetic passages give us.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 8/11/2016 at 3:25 PM, inchrist said:

The Jews (Foolish virgins) would have 10 days of Awe ( Hebrew) / 10 days of tribulation (Greek), on the 10^th day would be the Day of Atonement ( Rev 19) as beautifully illustrated in Zechariah 12 & 13

Again, you have provided a view of the five foolish virgins which is found nowhere else.

Now, while I do not agree with your assessment, you are free to hold it and espouse it, and market it to as many as will hear you and agree with you.

However, it has really nothing to do with the methodology of this thread.