Sequence-of-Events Analysis

[WilliamL]

Don'tcha just love the creativity of the NIV in its translations of the original languages?

Kai now means "when." But only here, not all the other times it is used in this passage.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

But fabricating one is
Like the following:

• Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD
  • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
  • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
  • Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
  • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind)
    • Last Trumpet call
    • Dead in Christ resurrected
  • Son of Man coming on the clouds with those Saints
  • Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds
    • Those who are alive and are left gathered up
  • Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
  • Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
  • First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
    • Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire

You know buddy, if you were at all serious, you'd have read how I put this all together to get to this point.

But you're not serious.  In fact, I don't think you're a serious scholar at all.  Especially the more you go on and on about mixing up parables and the Churches.  To me, it's nonsensical.  It is also not on topic.

You're not here to learn from anyone else, to learn how they construct their eschatology, the reasons for they way they assemble their thinking, or even finding out where you and they diverge so as to look anew at the decisions you've made in forming your own view of end-time prophecy.

You are here for one reason and one reason only: to destroy any evidence supporting an eschatology you personally don't like.

[Last Daze]

12 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

You're not here to learn from anyone else, to learn how they construct their eschatology, the reasons for they way they assemble their thinking, or even finding out where you and they diverge so as to look anew at the decisions you've made in forming your own view of end-time prophecy.

Honestly, are you?

[Behold]

Time of the gentiles

Rapture

Great Trib

Millennial reign

Satan's "season"

New Jerusalem

[Last Daze]

On 7/28/2016 at 8:10 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

They've invested so much time in arranging the chairs on the deck of the ship that they can stand no rearrangement.

I like to see where we diverge so I can examine junctions in how we form our respective eschatologies.

I'm not opposed to reconsidering my eschatology.  I've made a few changes in the couple of years here discussing things.  Even if I don't agree with someone, at least I understand their perspective and keep it in mind.

The major point of divergence, from a sequencing standpoint, is that I see the seventh trumpet as the return of Christ.  The chronology of the previous chapters beginning with the first seal ends.  Most of the rest of Revelation adds detail to chapters 6 - 11.

Why do you think that the millennial kingdom is not established at that point?  Or do you?  I'm not really clear on your sequencing concerning Christ touching down on earth.

My reasoning for the end of chronology at that point is based on:

• Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.   Revelation 10:5-7
• Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”  Revelation 11:15-18

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Honestly, are you?

I am not out to derail a thread and smash other people's heartfelt thinking and beliefs.

I will argue until the cows come home on points of interpretation and what is in Scripture.

And here, I have started a thread on my way of thinking so as to share it with others, take actual criticism which seeks to eliminate errors I may have overlooked, and to take in other's viewpoints so I don't miss something.

You know, a few years ago, a real nut of a poster actually pointed out Isaiah 63:1-6 to me.  I had totally overlooked it, but now look at it as Jesus' return to Heaven from the Day of the Lord.  Arguing with him actually produced a nugget of insight.

But what inchrist has put forth has no real worth from an eschatological view.  I have already written about the parallels between Jesus' first and second Advents and our place as the Bride to the first century Jewish wedding process.  I have written on the 7 Churches, and the varied ways their message can be applied not only to Christian living, but as church-types, and even a timeline of the Church.  However, inchrist's leap from one to another and blasting that over and over again, as if by repetition he'll make a point - all while not even bothering to read the central topic to this thread - seems to me to indicate a person who is not serious about this topic and only posts so as to take it off topic and hijack the entire thread.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The major point of divergence, from a sequencing standpoint, is that I see the seventh trumpet as the return of Christ.  The chronology of the previous chapters beginning with the first seal ends.  Most of the rest of Revelation adds detail to chapters 6 - 11.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

For some reason, I could not do anything with that quote, not even comment on it, so in order to reset the programming on this message board, I had to post it just to get rid of it.  I can't even edit it.  Weird.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The major point of divergence, from a sequencing standpoint, is that I see the seventh trumpet as the return of Christ.  

Well, I'd like to know the source of our divergence.  It's pretty easy to guess with a name of Last Daze that you're either into eschatology, or an adherent of the "Last Day" vis-a-vis classical Post-Trib eschatology, albeit with a little humor (days / daze / dazed).

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The chronology of the previous chapters beginning with the first seal ends. 

I'd like you to elaborate on this statement so I make sure I understand what you're saying and that I don't take it the wrong way.

As a point of reference, I see chapters 4 and 5 as setting the stage for the central theme of the broad overview of the "end-times" which leads to the chronological revelation of the Seals and the Trumpets in its successive chapters until a break in the action beginning in chapter 10.  This in turn, leads to what I call a Sidebar Account of the Temple and the Two Witness in Rev 11:1-13.  I then see the original theme reasserting itself as John literally goes back to the previous second Woe and introduces but then quickly sums up the third Woe / 7th Trumpet.  The quickness of chapter 11's conclusion is due to his obedience not reveal anything the seven thunders say.  He also omits what the strong Angel said when he cried out that precipitated their cry.

So I talk about the broad overview of the book of Revelation's Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, exclusive of 11:1-13.

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Most of the rest of Revelation adds detail to chapters 6 - 11.

 I'd tend to agree.  I look at detailed account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 as being parallel the broad overview, covering the end in a smaller time frame.  (I think the four horsemen precede the one 'seven' in in linear time; indeed, the first may have let loose 150 years ago or more.)

I look at the twin parallel accounts of chapter 12 with the Woman and the Serpent as representing two longer periods of time, but very much in sync with each other.

I think that beginning in chapter 19, we get the Epilogue of the end, starting right before the end of the one 'seven' and going well past that with the Millennium and beyond.

I view chapters 17 and 18 as explanatory in nature and not indicative of a major linear narrative covering a distinct period of time.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Why do you think that the millennial kingdom is not established at that point? 

I count Revelation 11:15-19 as one of four times the "end" of the one 'seven' is presented in the book of Revelation with its parallel accounts.

So in a way, it does bring about the establishment of the Millennium Kingdom, however, I also count two periods of time as a buffer between the one 'seven' and the Millennium: the 30 and 45 day periods of Daniel 12.

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I'm not really clear on your sequencing concerning Christ touching down on earth.

That goes back to Acts 1:11, Revelation 14:1 and Zechariah 14:4.

As a fact, Angels tell the Apostles that Jesus: "...will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."  As He left from the Mount of Olives, so coming back to that spot would fulfill this prophecy literally and quite exactly.

In Revelation 14:1, Jesus is standing on "Mount Zion" with the same 144,000 as is in the sixth Seal.  Now as Mount Zion has no present address, and some will take this figuratively, I can take a literal approach and legitimately within that construct, see Mount Zion as the newly renamed, split Mount of Olives.

And this is because in Zechariah 14:4, Jesus splits the Mount of Olives as He touches down upon them.  This splitting would be the second earthquake of the sixth Seal too.  This event also has applicability for the Remnant Jews who flee Jerusalem before the battle fought there on the Day of the Lord.  They would join the Jews from Judah who fled at the previous (months? weeks?) midpoint of the one 'seven' when the anti-Christ surrounded Jerusalem from his rapid invasion from the North.

Now as I connect all three to the same time and event, I notice that in the linear account of Revelation chapter 14, Jesus has touched down before He performs the gathering of the Elect from the clouds (Mt 24:31) in Rev 14:14-16.

So, in order to not violate the order, I do put Jesus as Returning and touching down on the earth BEFORE the Rapture, when He is viewed by those living far away from Jerusalem as only coming on the clouds with the Saints (1Th 3:13) He has resurrected from their resting place in Paradise.