Sequence-of-Events Analysis

[Marcus O'Reillius]

12 hours ago, Behold said:

Time of the gentiles

Rapture

Great Trib

Millennial reign

Satan's "season"

New Jerusalem

How do you reconcile your listing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation when the order in the Olivet Discourse is like this?

• v. 15  Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place”
• v. 21  Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the:
• v. 29  Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord
• v. 30  Sign of the Son of Man
• v. 30  The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• v. 31  Gathering Elect from the clouds

[Guest Robert]

13 hours ago, Behold said:

Time of the gentiles

Rapture

Great Trib

Millennial reign

Satan's "season"

New Jerusalem

Exactly: and the thing is: the church was the secret of the ages that was only revealed in full after Christ returned to heaven. It was still the age of Law until Pentecost, and a lot of folks do not realize that the Olivet discourse was speaking concerning Israel during the end times. Jesus offered the kingdom to Israel and they had to have a legitimate offer before the Lord could offer the church to both Jew and Gentile. In short: the rapture is not in Matthew 24 and 25. So those claiming it is "at the end" with the gathering of the elect from the east and the west: the Rapture only applies to the Church. Why would Jesus be telling those that He gicing the initial offer of the kingdom to?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

37 minutes ago, RobertS said:

and a lot of folks do not realize that the Olivet discourse was speaking concerning Israel during the end times. 

Okay...

As the fifth Discourse, and Jesus' Disourses are the central structure of the Gospel of Matthew and they are for the Church in one through four, and as Jesus is not addressing the Jewish leaders who turned down His Offer of Salvation but some of the Apostles who form the nexus of the Church - 

- And as "Elect" - eklektos - as used in the New Testament, when referring to a body of people, is always synonymous with the Church - (see below) -

-- Therefore, I reject the notion that the Olivet Discourse was only speaking concerning Israel during the end-times.

In fact, the whole point of the Olivet Discourse was to answer the Apostle's central question - "...and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"  Notice Jesus never answered their first question concerning the Temple.  If your point-of-view was actually evident, I'd think Jesus would have spent the whole discourse explaining the first Jewish Revolt.
_____________________________________

So, with the exception of the relevant Olivet Discourse end-time passages in question, the NIV passages for just eklektos in the NT are presented here for analysis.  The NASB translation is shown in parentheses for comparison. 

Chosen:

^{MT 22:14} "For many are invited, but few are chosen." (chosen)

^{LK 18: 7} And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? (elect)

^{LK 23:35} …if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" (Chosen One)

^{ROM 8:33} Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? (elect)

^{RO 16:13} Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, (choice man)

^{COL 3:12} Therefore, as God's chosen people (chosen)

^{1PE 2:4} As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God (choice and precious in the sight of)

^{1PE 2:6} "See, I lay a stone in Zion,

    a chosen and precious cornerstone,  (choice stone)

^{1PE 2:9} But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, (chosen)

^{2JN 1:1} To the chosen lady and her children, (chosen)

^{2JN 1:13} The children of your chosen sister send their greetings (chosen)

^{REV 17:14} -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." (chosen)

Elect:

^{1TI 5:21} Christ Jesus and the elect angels, (chosen)

^{2TI 2:10} for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, (chosen)

^{1PE 1:1} To God's elect, strangers in the world, (chosen)

            First of all, eklektos is used for aspects of God.  Jesus is described as eklektos in Luke and 1^st Peter and that word is repeated in quoting OT Scripture.  God’s angels are correspondingly called eklektos in Paul’s first letter to Timothy.  So like Saint, this word conveyed upon the believer also describes Jesus and other Heavenly beings.  Likewise too, when so many question their salvation because of sin in their life, it is difficult for the average lay Christian to take title to as being chosen by God over unrepentant sinners. 

            The second aspect to be gleamed here by this compilation of verses is that those that believe in God are choice rendered as a noun or adjective.  The first reading of Matthew 22:14 seems to point that God does the choosing.  That would imply the definition of chosen as a verb.  If Matthew had wanted to indicate that, then he would have been used the verb eklegomai.  However, the word here is eklektos which is a noun or an adjective, not a verb.  To say Saints are chosen must understand that chosen is also a noun in the English.  This then describes Saints as being ‘the selection’ of God as chosen is defined in the English as a noun.  This conforms to Bromiley’s definition of the Greek word in translation as well.

[Guest Robert]

3 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Okay...

As the fifth Discourse, and Jesus' Disourses are the central structure of the Gospel of Matthew and they are for the Church in one through four, and as Jesus is not addressing the Jewish leaders who turned down His Offer of Salvation but some of the Apostles who form the nexus of the Church - 

- And as "Elect" - eklektos - as used in the New Testament, when referring to a body of people, is always synonymous with the Church - (see below) -

-- Therefore, I reject the notion that the Olivet Discourse was only speaking concerning Israel during the end-times.

In fact, the whole point of the Olivet Discourse was to answer the Apostle's central question - "...and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"  Notice Jesus never answered their first question concerning the Temple.  If your point-of-view was actually evident, I'd think Jesus would have spent the whole discourse explaining the first Jewish Revolt.
_____________________________________

So, with the exception of the relevant Olivet Discourse end-time passages in question, the NIV passages for just eklektos in the NT are presented here for analysis.  The NASB translation is shown in parentheses for comparison. 

Chosen:

^{MT 22:14} "For many are invited, but few are chosen." (chosen)

^{LK 18: 7} And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? (elect)

^{LK 23:35} …if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" (Chosen One)

^{ROM 8:33} Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? (elect)

^{RO 16:13} Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, (choice man)

^{COL 3:12} Therefore, as God's chosen people (chosen)

^{1PE 2:4} As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God (choice and precious in the sight of)

^{1PE 2:6} "See, I lay a stone in Zion,

    a chosen and precious cornerstone,  (choice stone)

^{1PE 2:9} But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, (chosen)

^{2JN 1:1} To the chosen lady and her children, (chosen)

^{2JN 1:13} The children of your chosen sister send their greetings (chosen)

^{REV 17:14} -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." (chosen)

Elect:

^{1TI 5:21} Christ Jesus and the elect angels, (chosen)

^{2TI 2:10} for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, (chosen)

^{1PE 1:1} To God's elect, strangers in the world, (chosen)

            First of all, eklektos is used for aspects of God.  Jesus is described as eklektos in Luke and 1^st Peter and that word is repeated in quoting OT Scripture.  God’s angels are correspondingly called eklektos in Paul’s first letter to Timothy.  So like Saint, this word conveyed upon the believer also describes Jesus and other Heavenly beings.  Likewise too, when so many question their salvation because of sin in their life, it is difficult for the average lay Christian to take title to as being chosen by God over unrepentant sinners. 

            The second aspect to be gleamed here by this compilation of verses is that those that believe in God are choice rendered as a noun or adjective.  The first reading of Matthew 22:14 seems to point that God does the choosing.  That would imply the definition of chosen as a verb.  If Matthew had wanted to indicate that, then he would have been used the verb eklegomai.  However, the word here is eklektos which is a noun or an adjective, not a verb.  To say Saints are chosen must understand that chosen is also a noun in the English.  This then describes Saints as being ‘the selection’ of God as chosen is defined in the English as a noun.  This conforms to Bromiley’s definition of the Greek word in translation as well.

If this was for the church, then the offer of the Kingdom to Israel was not a legitimate one, yet Jesus offered it to Israel before the offer of the church was made to the world. When Israel rejected Christ as their king, then the Lord proceeded with the Church.

Edited August 3, 2016 by RobertS

[Marcus O'Reillius]

4 hours ago, RobertS said:

If this was for the church, then the offer of the Kingdom to Israel was not a legitimate one, yet Jesus offered it to Israel before the offer of the church was made to the world. When Israel rejected Christ as their king, then the Lord proceeded with the Church.

I like this signage I saw in front of the Otterbein United Methodist Church in downtown York, PA.

Quote

God doesn't have a plan B.

In Isaiah 49:6, one of my favorite passages, the Father charges the Son with this assignment"

6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also make You a light of the nations
So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

So while Jesus does not walk beyond the bounds of Israel in compliance with His Statement that: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He also heals the Samarian woman's daughter - and in the feeding of the 4000, picking up 7 baskets of crumbs is indicative of the Gentile nations in the Land of Israel as contrasted to the feeding of the 5000 and picking up 12 baskets is indicative of the twelve tribes of Israel.
------------------------------------------------------

So then I am left with your conditional statement:
IF this was for the Church
THEN the offer of the Kingdom was not a legitimate one.

I fail to see how one negates the other when Jesus only sought the lost sheep of Israel, and so in doing so, made a legitimate offer to them.  
ALL the Discourses Jesus gave are to the Church and the Church UNITES Jew and Gentile.
When He only goes to them, then how is the offer not legitimate?  It is the same offer made to us.
When the Jews reject His offer, as they did in His third year of Ministry, that was also in the Plan.  
God knew they would.  And allowance is made in the Olivet Discourse for those in Judea to find their way into His Grace in the Millennium.  

In sending out Paul later, specifically to Asia Minor rather than India, and with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Antiocch, hadn't Jesus fulfilled God's charge to Him made long before His FIrst Advent to also make Him a Light to the nations?  And when He only went through Israel, weren't both were satisfied?

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, RobertS said:

a lot of folks do not realize that the Olivet discourse was speaking concerning Israel during the end times.

• Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.  Matthew 24:9

The people of Israel will be hated by all nations and killed because of the name of Jesus?

[Behold]

10 hours ago, Marcus O'Reillius said:

How do you reconcile your listing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation when the order in the Olivet Discourse is like this?

• v. 15  Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place”
• v. 21  Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the:
• v. 29  Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord
• v. 30  Sign of the Son of Man
• v. 30  The Son of Man coming on the clouds
• v. 31  Gathering Elect from the clouds

Time of the gentiles

Rapture

Great Trib

Millennial reign

Satan's "season"

New Jerusalem

[Marcus O'Reillius]

On 7/28/2016 at 9:17 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

Rather than go over 2Th 2, which is another major linear narrative any good eschatology will have to build upon in order to have a complete framework, I'll just get to my conclusion which comes after six pages of source material later in this book.

The initial list starts out fairly simple, but it is made difficult because the order Paul words it. He says this and that don't happen UNTIL this other thing and that other thing happen. So the order isn't as clear-cut as it can be, and some people mix up the one being removed as being the Church - which is an easy enough error to make.

However, the one being removed, while known to the Thessalonians is lost to us - but one thing, the one has to be removed BEFORE the Man of Lawlessness will be revealed - and then the Day of Christ will come.

The basic list is:

• The Rebellion
• Man of lawlessness is revealed
• Second coming of our Lord
• Our being gathering to Him
  • The Dead in Christ
  • Those who are alive and are left.

Here, back on page 5, is where I made my mistake.

I incorporated, with a shortcut in explanation (which means I left it out - like forgetting to carry a number to the next column in addition induces and error) additional information from 1Th 4:16 with 2Th 2:1 - without its proper sequencing as is shown with 1Th 3:13.

The correct order as given in does not address the Dead in Christ, but as an observer-true statement, addresses the gathering as if it were happening to Paul and his present audience as they would be taken up in such an occurrence - if indeed it had happened, which is the cause for the Thessalonians distress! - they thought they had missed Jesus' parousia!

Here are the first three verses of 2Th 2 which set the basic linear narrative which describe the events which will come:

1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,

IF, and that's a big IF, you go by only what is listed in its order without the qualifying conjunctions, you'd get:

• The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
• Our gathering together to Him
• Apostasy comes
• Man of Lawlessness revealed.

However, this misses a key word: Unless. "...for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first..." - and that is buttressed by an additional qualification: first.

Therefore, the basic order, or list as I called it, is reversed because the second two things actually happen first, and then the first two things mentioned happen.  You must read it slowly and discern the order because Paul starts off with what is most important to him to convey to them, and then qualifies a prerequisite event so they would know they hadn't "missed out" on Jesus' coming.

• Apostasy comes
• Man of Lawlessness revealed
• The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
• Our gathering together to Him.

My mistake was to include this with that without taking the time to sequence it logically.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Notice how Paul gives the gathering up as if it were happening to them at that time.  This is the nature of an "observer-true" point-of-view statement.
Here in 1st Thessalonians 4, the order of events is as follows:

• The Lord descends from Heaven with a shout
• Trumpet call of God (the Last Trumpet of 1Co 15:52)
• The Dead in Christ
• We who are alive and remain are caught up in the clouds.

The resurrection of the Dead in Christ comes after Jesus comes.
It comes before, and I would say, right before the gathering of the Elect.

As Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives first, as indicated in Acts 1:11, Revelation 14:1, and Zechariah 14:4 -
And as the 144,000 are "mustered" before the Harvest in both the sixth Seal and Revelation chapter 14 - 
So I will modify the previous list which I gave this way:

On 7/28/2016 at 9:17 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.

• Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
• Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
• Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
• 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds
  • Dead in Christ
  • Those who are alive and are left
• Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation

To this listing:

• Sun/moon/star event - Day of the Lord
  • Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
  • Jesus touches down on Mount Zion
  • Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commision / Warn the wicked
    • Last Trumpet call of God
    • Dead in Christ resurrected
  • Son of Man coming on the clouds with the Saints
  • Harvest Redemption / Gathering the Elect from the earth
    • Those who are alive and remain
  • The Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.

I will include this correction in my papers and my posts and I will continue shortly with more integration of linear, narrative, end-time prophecy.

[Marcus O'Reillius]

8 minutes ago, Behold said:

Time of the gentiles
Rapture
Great Trib
Millennial reign
Satan's "season"
New Jerusalem

I asked you how you would reconcile the list you gave with the order Jesus gives in the Olivet Discourse.

Merely repeating it does not answer the question, nor buttresses the initial claim you made; it is a fallacy in argument to merely repeat what you say.

Now I fully suspect a new definition for who the "Elect" are in the Olivet Discourse, because a Pre-Trib eschatology, and your list is indicative of that, demands some qualification of "Elect" to preclude themselves from having to go through the Great Tribulation - as defined by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, here is the order Jesus gives:

• v. 15  Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place”

• v. 21  Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the:

• v. 29  Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord

• v. 30  Sign of the Son of Man

• v. 30  The Son of Man coming on the clouds

• v. 31  Gathering Elect from the earth

How is it that you can reverse His Ordering of events?

[Behold]

Just now, Marcus O'Reillius said:

I asked you how you would reconcile the list you gave with the order Jesus gives in the Olivet Discourse.

Merely repeating it does not answer the question, nor buttresses the initial claim you made; it is a fallacy in argument to merely repeat what you say.

Now I fully suspect a new definition for who the "Elect" are in the Olivet Discourse, because a Pre-Trib eschatology, and your list is indicative of that, demands some qualification of "Elect" to preclude themselves from having to go through the Great Tribulation - as defined by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, here is the order Jesus gives:

• v. 15  Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place”

   

• v. 21  Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the:

   

• v. 29  Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord

   

• v. 30  Sign of the Son of Man

   

• v. 30  The Son of Man coming on the clouds

   

• v. 31  Gathering Elect from the earth

   

How is it that you can reverse His Ordering of events?

Because your question is obtuse and your eschatology  is confused.

What im showing you is the actual events that will take place, in the order they will take place.

we are currently in the "time of the gentiles".... and this will stop

The Rapture will occur.

The Great Trib will begin and end.

 the Millennial reign will begin and end.

Satan's "season" will begin and end.

New Jerusalem will begin.