When the sincere disagree

[kwikphilly]

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  Endtime_Survivors said:

I think it's good to keep this in mind, but there are times when it just feels right to blast a brother/sister who's teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. I guess the best way to know what to do is to be constantly asking God, "should I be soft or hard on this person".

Actually,I think it is probably best to ask our Lord"What would YOU have me to say or should I not speak at all?" When we start "thinking" about how,what,when,where is usually when we can easily make a mess of things........Many times I too see things very contrary to the Word of God & I do my best to not "re-act",I don't even want to log on if I am not prepared to "respond" prayerfully,spiritually  & in communion with God......it is not always that way(my bad,flesh)but to "Wait on the Lord" is top priority & to learn to "zip it" comes with much submission,surrender,obedience & humility(& a whole lotta LOVE).............Praise Jesus!                                       With Love-in Christ,Kwik

[Endtime_Survivors]

17 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

.the moment there is contention is a red flag that something is not quite right,"self' has popped up in someone and it is not flesh & blood we wrestle with

That is the time to say,why am I having the "need" to get "my" point across,is there something I am not hearing,could I be mistaken etc,,,,etc,,, & we should ALWAYS desire to "reason together"......the very moment there is division,something,someone is in the wrong.....there is no "your both right"....it is Gods Way & the wrong way....we have to work that out together,in LOVE                                         To God be the Glory                                                          With love-in Christ,Kwik

I think I get there you're coming from, but I think there may be a misunderstanding in where the two of us are coming from regarding concepts like "contention", "my point",  and "division".

I don't see those things as bad in themselves.  The topic is "when the sincere disagree", which suggests that disagreement does not necessarily equate to wrong.  For clarity, yes, you're right that I am mostly referring to moral/important spiritual issues rather than smaller opinion issues, though I also think it's pretty easy to confuse opinion issues with moral issues so I think there should be some room to discuss the overlap, too.

If we have a disagreement, then we necessarily have a division between what you see to be right and what I see to be right.   That does not mean the division is bad or wrong, but rather that we have different perspectives as to how we interpret God's will. For example, I may believe that we should spend resources to teach orphans how to read, while you may believe the resources would be better used to feed them.  After all, if they're hungry then they probably won't be able to concentrate particularly well, but if they don't get an education they could end up becoming dependent on others for the rest of their lives. Neither approach is wrong in itself and neither is it inherently wrong that we have a division over which course of action would be better (assuming there is no direct leading from God one way or the other which is being ignored by either party).  This is a situation where the sincere could disagree; unity and division; agreement with helping orphans, but disagreement about how best to do that. The bottom line is that we both want to help the orphans, even if we're divided over which method would be best. 

I believe the same could be true of both an atheist and a Christian working together in the same orphanage.  There would be very obvious, and perhaps strong disagreement between the two of them, but despite the atheist's lack of theology, at least he's helping the poor.  In that, he would have at least some agreement with both the Christian  and Jesus and I'd suggest that, based on Jesus' teachings about loving our neighbor, that area of agreement would be more important in God's eyes than the area of disagreement.

And then there is Jesus' interpretation of division, in that he actually boasted that he came to bring division, but it was division between right and wrong so it's not wrong to have division, but rather we should be sure that the division we do have is based on good and fair reasoning.

 

 

[Guest Robert]

On 7/29/2016 at 1:10 AM, Endtime_Survivors said:

I think it's good to keep this in mind, but there are times when it just feels right to blast a brother/sister who's teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. I guess the best way to know what to do is to be constantly asking God, "should I be soft or hard on this person".

The thing is this: yes, it may "feel right" to "blast someone", bu is that what the Lord wants us to do? We can't go by feeling, but by God's instructions in the matter:

" Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. " (Romans 14:13, NASB)

Admittedly, this verse in context is talking about regarding one day over another as "holy" and what foods one eats concerning their walk. But in that vein, when we are debating over what days are holy or what foods are clean, or for that fact, what is correct and what is not in scripture, we must determine not to put a stumbling block in the way of any of our brethren. And we can often do so when we "blast" them in trying to correct them. What good does it do if they are so "blasted" that the message we are trying to convey is lost and we cause them to veer off with our vehemence?

We cannot argue someone into the Kingdom, and we should not be trying to "bludgeon" someone into agreement with us.

Something I think that would be good for all of us to keep in mind is this: before the Lord, we will all be mistaken about something,  be it the timing of the Rapture, the events of the Tribulation, what Jesus really looks like (I think all of us are going to be surprised on that one!) and so on. There are questions only the Lord is going to be able to settle, and if we're not sure, it's best to leave those with Him.And at that point, it's going to come down to how we treat those who disagree with us, and whom we disagree with. There are core issues that are paramount to our walk, then there are non soteriological issues (issues pertaining to salvation) that aren't all that important, and we need to learn the difference.

And on the important issues where we disagree: we don't know every person's story, their walk or their life. People think like they do for a reason, and while sometimes a firm reply is needed, patience is most often called for. Sometimes we're not the one they need to hear that particular truth from, and it may be someone else who can put it in a way they can understand. it's nothing against us, but none of us see everything the exact same way as another. That's just how we are, and that's why the Lord is as patient as He is.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

20 hours ago, RobertS said:

The thing is this: yes, it may "feel right" to "blast someone", bu is that what the Lord wants us to do? We can't go by feeling, but by God's instructions in the matter:

Yup, which is why I said the best way to know which approach to take is to be constantly asking God about it.  As for feelings, I think it can go both ways.  If someone asks you to do something which you believe to be immoral but which you can't quite explain, you could say, "it just feels wrong to do this".  Would you be satisfied if the other person said, "we can't go by feelings"?  The context in which I used the phrase was related more so to the conscience rather than an emotional outburst.

20 hours ago, RobertS said:

And we can often do so when we "blast" them in trying to correct them. What good does it do if they are so "blasted" that the message we are trying to convey is lost and we cause them to veer off with our vehemence?

I believe there are two issues here.  One is whether it is right to blast (implying that there are times when it is right, as demonstrated by Jesus on several occasions), and the other is what it means to blast (i.e. a godly rebuke vs emotional outbursts, self righteous indignation, ignornace etc).  When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan" Peter probably felt more than a little blasted.  When he said to a crowd of people (including his disciples), "O faithless and perverse generation how long must I suffer you" they probably felt a little blasted and when he likened the Syrophoenician woman to a dog, she may have felt a teensy bit blasted (though she persevered through it). When writing to the Corinthians Paul threatened to come with a rod (as opposed to peace and meekness) if they didn't shape up.  They probably felt a little blasted. 

The context of my comments on blasting was in response to missmuffet commenting on how to respond to people teaching false doctrines.  I agreed with her that we should keep in mind the "kindness and grace" approach, but said that there are times when it feels right (i.e. believed to be appropriate or necessary or spirit led) to take a harder stance (i.e. blast).  So, when you respond with comments about how we can't argue people into the Kingdom and how we shouldn't overwhelm them with criticisms I'm hoping you will understand how I would interpret those comments as not being particularly relevant to the point I was actually making.

20 hours ago, RobertS said:

Something I think that would be good for all of us to keep in mind is this: before the Lord, we will all be mistaken about something,  be it the timing of the Rapture, the events of the Tribulation, what Jesus really looks like (I think all of us are going to be surprised on that one!) and so on. There are questions only the Lord is going to be able to settle, and if we're not sure, it's best to leave those with Him.And at that point, it's going to come down to how we treat those who disagree with us, and whom we disagree with. There are core issues that are paramount to our walk, then there are non soteriological issues (issues pertaining to salvation) that aren't all that important, and we need to learn the difference.

Agreed and I believe you've spoken at least part of my mind with this paragraph.   Jesus said that people would come from the  East and West while the "children" of the kingdom will be cast out; the idea being that the people who thought they had it all figured out were the most wrong. It's interesting that these comments followed on from his interaction with a Roman soldier who was neither Jew nor Christian.  It seems Jesus was implying that there will be some big surprises when it comes time to judge the people of the Earth.

 

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

12 hours ago, Bluebird said:

I agree with RobertS completely. While it may feel good to "blast" someone, and I have been sorely tempted to do that too, it is still wrong

Hi Bluebird.  I think you have probably misunderstood the context of my comments.  I did not say it feels good to blast people.  I said that sometimes it feels right to blast people.  The context is that of which approach to take; a soft, gentle approach (which Jesus sometimes utilized) or a harder, more stern approach (which Jesus and his followers also sometimes utilized) when dealing with those who teach doctrines contrary to what Jesus taught.  I also finished off the thought by suggesting that the best way to know which approach to take is to listen to God.

If you'd like more clarification on what I mean by "blast" let me know.

[kwikphilly]

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, but rather that we have different perspectives as to how we interpret God's will. For example, I may believe that we should spend resources to teach orphans how to read, while you may believe the resources would be better used to feed them.                                 Endtime_Survivors

Gotcha Brother............each Called to their specific assignments which may be very different indeed but always having the same end result,the Love of Christ through each of us...........& being United by our Faith I hold fast to the principle of "reasoning TOGETHER".........in LOVE things can always have satisfactory compromise amongst Brethren,Christ is our Head,He Will give us confirmation & direct our footsteps                  Glory to God!                                                                       With Love-in Christ,Kwik

[Endtime_Survivors]

On 7/31/2016 at 11:25 PM, Bluebird said:

Hello Endtimes, we should not be pushed by feelings, even if those feelings seem justified.

Yup, which is why I said the best way to know which approach to take is to be constantly asking God about it.  As for feelings, I think it can go both ways.  If someone asks you to do something which you believe to be immoral but which you can't quite explain, you could say, "it just feels wrong to do this".  Would you be satisfied if the other person said, "we can't go by feelings"? What is the conscience, if not a "feeling" we get this way or that?  The context in which I used the phrase was related more so to the conscience rather than an emotional outburst.

Also, regarding what "seems" justified, aren't we all in the same boat anytime we make any kind of judgment, whether it is a blast or a more gentle rebuke?  We're all operating based on what seems right according to our ability to understand and interpret information around us.  The moment when we say, "no, it's not that it "seems" right to me, bur rather I know that I know that I know that I know I'm right" is the moment we close ourselves off from the possibility of being mistaken.

 

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

On 7/31/2016 at 11:35 PM, kwikphilly said:

Gotcha Brother............each Called to their specific assignments which may be very different indeed but always having the same end result,the Love of Christ through each of us...........& being United by our Faith I hold fast to the principle of "reasoning TOGETHER".........in LOVE things can always have satisfactory compromise amongst Brethren,Christ is our Head,He Will give us confirmation & direct our footsteps                  Glory to

Hey Kwikphilly.   Do you write greeting cards, by any chance? 

[kwikphilly]

LOL......no I do not but I do give God the Glory in anything beautiful comes from my lips,it is all because of Him Alone..........Praise Jesus!

Gee,you fit right in here ,don't ya Brother?

                                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik