1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2016 at 0:55 PM, Ezra said:

Sure, actually the first FIVE seals were opened and operational since the first century. See Matthew 24.

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

I'm not convinced that's the case. I get that the beginnings of sorrows in Matt can be related to the first two seals but should they be connected? It's plausible that since Jesus time we have been in the beginnings of sorrows but not yet seen the specific terms of the first two seals.  The beginnings of sorrows was quite general and, looking back, vast in scope, where the first and second seal is quite specific in actions and conditions and timing. It would seem to me Rev is speaking to the 70th week and Jesus words in Matt are telling us just because you see wars and hear the rumors, the end is not yet. In Rev this is the end. The wars, famine, pestilence and earthquakes are just the beginning. Rev is the sorrows and the seals are respective to the 70th week. So has that occurred? Have the first two seals been opened in respect to the beginning of the 70th week?

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2016 at 1:18 PM, Ezra said:

Futurists understand that the 6th and 7th seals are yet to be opened. But to believe that wars and rumors of wars are in the future would be naive. To believe that famines and pestilences and earthquakes do not exist at present is to be ill-informed. To believe that Death and Hades are not riding around as we speak is to fool ourselves.  Just add up all the recent terrorist attacks around the world.

On another point that has nothing to do with this discussion it behooves pretib to claim none of the seals have been opened. The opening of any seal would release a prophesied event which contradicts imminence. It is true the conditions of the beginning of sorrows exist but is this the full manifestation of the seals? Are the existing conditions the fulfillment of the prophesy? 

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2016 at 1:27 PM, missmuffet said:

I think we clearly need enoob's class on hermeneutics on this thread. You guys are not reading the Bible as it was intended to be read. Especially Revelation.

Question: "How can I understand the Book of Revelation?"

Answer: The key to Bible interpretation, especially for the book of Revelation, is to have a consistent hermeneutic. Hermeneutics is the study of the principles of interpretation. In other words, it is the way you interpret Scripture. A normal hermeneutic or normal interpretation of Scripture means that unless the verse or passage clearly indicates the author was using figurative language, it should be understood in its normal sense. We are not to look for other meanings if the natural meaning of the sentence makes sense. Also, we are not to spiritualize Scripture by assigning meanings to words or phrases when it is clear the author, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, meant it to be understood as it is written.

One example is Revelation 20. Many will assign various meanings to references to a thousand-year period. Yet, the language does not imply in any way that the references to the thousand years should be taken to mean anything other than a literal period of one thousand years.

A simple outline for the book of Revelation is found in Revelation 1:19. In the first chapter, the risen and exalted Christ is speaking to John. Christ tells John to “write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.” The things John had already seen are recorded in chapter 1. The “things which are” (that were present in John's day) are recorded in chapters 2–3 (the letters to the churches). The “things that will take place” (future things) are recorded in chapters 4–22.

Generally speaking, chapters 4–18 of Revelation deal with God's judgments on the people of the earth. These judgments are not for the church (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 9). Before the judgments begin, the church will have been removed from the earth in an event called the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Chapters 4–18 describe a time of “Jacob's trouble”—trouble for Israel (Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:12, 12:1). It is also a time when God will judge unbelievers for their rebellion against Him.

Chapter 19 describes Christ's return with the church, the bride of Christ. He defeats the beast and the false prophet and casts them into the lake of fire. In Chapter 20, Christ has Satan bound and cast in the Abyss. Then Christ sets up His kingdom on earth that will last 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years, Satan is released and he leads a rebellion against God. He is quickly defeated and also cast into the lake of fire. Then the final judgment occurs, the judgment for all unbelievers, when they too are cast into the lake of fire.

Chapters 21 and 22 describe what is referred to as the eternal state. In these chapters God tells us what eternity with Him will be like. The book of Revelation is understandable. God would not have given it to us if its meaning were entirely a mystery. The key to understanding the book of Revelation is to interpret it as literally as possible—it says what it means and means what it says.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-Revelation.html

A literal interpretation of the bible in Rev, Thess and Cor excludes a pretrib rapture and contradicts the statement, "These judgements are not for the church." The question is, "Have the first two seals been opened? If not, how can we know that are going to be, and if the they have been, how can we know?

[Diaste]

On 8/19/2016 at 7:05 AM, Last Daze said:

The evil angel that comes up out of the abyss is himself an eighth king according to Revelation 17:11.  That's in keeping with the white horse rider of the first seal having a crown.

The "conquering" as I see it is essentially an assault on truth.  That's what the kingdom of darkness does.  Jesus' initial response concerning the sign of His coming was to see to it that no one misleads you.  All of the deception of wickedness will be in force when the man of sin is revealed.  Deception runs contrary to truth.

Lies are being embraces as truth.  Evil is being perceived as good.  What was considered bizarre behavior is normal.  This alternate "reality" doesn't happen without truth being conquered.

Eventually, yes, there will be a military aspect to the conquering but initially I see it as covert, a setting of the stage.

This is off topic but why not? Two sides to all this stuff in Rev are that some see it as mainly spiritual and some see it as mainly physical. But the truth is there is a merging of the physical and spiritual with supernatural power manifested once again in the government of mankind. Great spiritual influence and supernatural power are going to change the course of business as usual in the mortal realm. For instance, the beast is a man resurrected by the dragon and imbued with great power to deceive the world. This beast is likely the first seal rider, as you have said.  And the question is: Is this rider loose and the first seal open? And can we know that to a certainty?

[Marcus O'Reillius]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I can see the interpretation of the seals bears on recognizing the manifestation. A view that might be simplistic, something I favor in interpretation, are the attributes of the first two seals. It seems to me the first two seals are connected and the second flows from the first. We see a conqueror in the first and peace taken from the earth in the second. Naturally a conqueror will remove peace if the actions of conquering are militaristic in nature.  If that's true, do we see a conqueror taking peace from the earth? I believe so.

If that's true, have we reached the full scope? Or are we thinking the actions are ramping up to the full meaning of the prophecy of the first two seals?

I would link the first to the second.  I do think that the Industrial Revolution has brought war on a scale which was never before possible.  And Capitalism, while it has conquered the world without firing a shot, bringing down both the iron and the bamboo curtain, has not made the world a more peaceful place.

The scope continues to grow.  The things we are seeing now, build up successively, and perhaps even logarithmically, and they will crescendo in the one 'seven' in my opinion.  While not included in my posting, I look at the sudden, and rapid growth of disease coming from animals - the Zika virus, being just one of over 20 such mutations to affect the world - as being just another manifestation of the four spirits at work in this world to bring the world up to a fever pitch.  

It is only in turmoil and chaos that tyrants look attractive with their promise to restore order, and the byword, which is a lie, in the end-times is: peace and safety.

[Last Daze]

40 minutes ago, Diaste said:

This is off topic but why not? Two sides to all this stuff in Rev are that some see it as mainly spiritual and some see it as mainly physical. But the truth is there is a merging of the physical and spiritual with supernatural power manifested once again in the government of mankind. Great spiritual influence and supernatural power are going to change the course of business as usual in the mortal realm. For instance, the beast is a man resurrected by the dragon and imbued with great power to deceive the world. This beast is likely the first seal rider, as you have said.  And the question is: Is this rider loose and the first seal open? And can we know that to a certainty?

I couldn't agree more with supernatural / natural cause and effect you state.  That principle has proven invaluable in helping discern certain aspects of prophecy.  In Revelation we see the activity of three primary evil beings, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.  The dragon is Satan.  The beast is an evil angel because he comes up out of the abyss which is never associated with humans, and the false prophet is the only human of the group.  The interplay between them that I see is that Satan gives the evil angel beast his power, throne, and great authority and then enters the false prophet for the purpose of deceiving the world with supernatural signs.

As to the first seal being opened, the only indication of such would be seen in the effects.  I believe that the beast is a prince like those that are described in Daniel 10, ie prince of Persia, prince of Greece.  I see him as the evil angel in charge of bringing about the feet of iron and clay kingdom in Daniel 2.  The description of that kingdom, a multinational, multicultural one, fits the U.N.  Globalization is conquering national sovereignty.  Truth is under siege.  Global economies vulnerable.  The whole globalization push has been a protracted, multi-faceted conquering of national and individual independence and to me, is evidence of a specific spiritual agenda manifesting in the natural realm brought about by the beast.

The certainty of the first seal being opened, as I see it, lies in recognizing the existence of the feet of iron and clay and the covert conquering taking place through that global structure.

[Ezra]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

On another point that has nothing to do with this discussion it behooves pretib to claim none of the seals have been opened.

A lot of pretribbers believe that the seals remain unopened. But since we have the Olivet Discourse as the outline of events until the Second Coming of Christ, it is imperative that the book of Revelation be fitted into that framework. So what we have is:

1. False Christs and false prophets ---> FIRST SEAL

2. Wars and rumors of wars---> SECOND SEAL

3. Famines----> THIRD SEAL

4. Pestilences, earthquakes, etc.----> FOURTH SEAL

5. And shall kill you-----> FIFTH SEAL

All of the above have been happening since the first century.

 

[precepts]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:56 PM, Ezra said:

If you are referring to the Four Horsemen, they are personifications -- not spirits.  Death and Hades are personifications, and so are all the others.  Therefore they do not infest anyone.  They and their horses simply represent the conditions with which they are associated. 

What makes you such an expert to tell others what's what? The four horsemen are the same fallen angels that are released.

Personifications aren't thrown into the lake of fire, only angels/men.

Edited August 21, 2016 by precepts

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, Ezra said:

A lot of pretribbers believe that the seals remain unopened. But since we have the Olivet Discourse as the outline of events until the Second Coming of Christ, it is imperative that the book of Revelation be fitted into that framework. So what we have is:

1. False Christs and false prophets ---> FIRST SEAL

2. Wars and rumors of wars---> SECOND SEAL

3. Famines----> THIRD SEAL

4. Pestilences, earthquakes, etc.----> FOURTH SEAL

5. And shall kill you-----> FIFTH SEAL

All of the above have been happening since the first century.

 

Interesting. I have both seen and thought the same thing. The sticking point, and it may be that it's a subtle one that has little significance, is the phrase, "beginning of sorrows" in Matt 24:8.

Jesus lists false prophets, wars, famines, pestilence, earthquakes happening all over the world as "the beginning of sorrows". I have thought this period is the precursor leading up to the opening of the first seal and is not the same as the seal conditions revealed in Rev 6. Why? Because try as I might I cannot connect the corporate statement, "Many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many." with the individual conqueror king on the white horse of Rev 6:2.  The failure of the connection then leads me to conclude the spiritual distress of the people, and the angst of the very earth, in the "beginning of sorrows" are the signs the end is approaching but it is not yet the end, or 70th week, to wit Luke 21:8-9, where we are told the end is not here even though we see false christs and wars and rumors of war, or commotions. In light of Luke 21 it's difficult for me to connect the first two seals, which I can only assume are fully within the 70th week, with either the beginning of sorrows in Matt 24 or the wars, commotions, and false christs in Luke 21.

I do agree however that these signs leading up to the 70th week have been occurring for a long time. In the past several decades it has proliferated due to an increase in the natural phenomena and the rebellious nature of mankind encouraged and prominently displayed, in part. The internet and smart phones have allowed any incident, no matter how minor to become the story of the day. This is in fact encouraging more and more rebellion due to the '15 minutes of fame' adage. Sorry. A bit of social commentary I couldn't resist. But I think it's relevant and a force that shouldn't be ignored.

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, precepts said:

What makes you such an expert to tell others what's what? The four horsemen are the same fallen angels that are released. Personifications aren't thrown into the lake of fire, only angels/men.

<high five> Is that inappropriate?