1st and 2nd Seal Opened? How can we know?

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

That's quite the overview. I have heard similar things in the past. I certainly agree the gospel must be preached before the end comes. That's a pretty clear verse. No ambiguity.

I know most think the conqueror will be a covert operative. I used to think the same thing. But I'm not convinced the image of the rider is that of a covert operative. The image we see is a king.  "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." He's on a white horse, no mention is made of what this person is wearing except the crown. He has a bow but we have no idea if he's holding the bow or wearing it, and he's going about winning. There's a lot of questions here. Does the bow represent military power? I would say yes. The context is of a conqueror so a bow as a symbol of military power is apt in this verse.

What is the rider doing? First, he's conquering. The verse goes a bit further and says, "...to conquer." This conquering is a state of being for the rider. His MO is to take over with the bow, which can only be a reference to strength of arm or military power in this context....

More on this later....

The evil angel that comes up out of the abyss is himself an eighth king according to Revelation 17:11.  That's in keeping with the white horse rider of the first seal having a crown.

The "conquering" as I see it is essentially an assault on truth.  That's what the kingdom of darkness does.  Jesus' initial response concerning the sign of His coming was to see to it that no one misleads you.  All of the deception of wickedness will be in force when the man of sin is revealed.  Deception runs contrary to truth.

Lies are being embraces as truth.  Evil is being perceived as good.  What was considered bizarre behavior is normal.  This alternate "reality" doesn't happen without truth being conquered.

Eventually, yes, there will be a military aspect to the conquering but initially I see it as covert, a setting of the stage.

[WilliamL]

We should not presume that the ones sitting on the horses are anything but powerful spirits allowed to infest the non-believers of the earth. If one wants to think they are beings which will personally manifest upon earth, then one would have to say that the horses would have to likewise manifest -- and I don't ever hear anyone insisting upon that.

Jesus said that "many" false christs and prophets would appear, and this sign would mark the commencement of the birth pangs. This is what the 1st Seal indicates. The precedent can be found in 1 Kings 22:

22:21 “Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him [Ahab].’ 22 “The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his [400] prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’

[precepts]

I think everybody missed my post on page since it was hidden until approved, so I'm posting it again since everyone's on page 4:

Quote

 

 Knowledge is Power. Revelation does not occur in chronological order. The seals, trumps, and vials all happen simultaneously. Events that took place during certain seals happened during certain trumps and vials; for example, the releasing of the first 4 seals is the same event as the 5th and 6th seal. They are the 4 (there are actually 5) kings mentioned in Dan 7:17, the fallen angels. They were released after being bound for a thousand years 9 years before the flood, released as the plagues in Egypt, which are the first 4 trumps  and the first 5 vials - the sixth vial being the drying up of the Euphrates that caused Darius the Mede to conquer Babylon and free the Jews. So, the first 4 seals, trumps 1-6, and vials 1-5 are the same events.

   The beast in the second seal given a great sword was Nebuchadnezzar, given to him by God:

Eze 30:24 And I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and put my sword in his hand: but I will break Pharaoh's arms, and he shall groan before him with the groanings of a deadly wounded man.

Eze 30:25 But I will strengthen the arms of the king of Babylon, and the arms of Pharaoh shall fall down; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall put my sword into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall stretch it out upon the land of Egypt.

  The beast in the 1st seal wearing a crown and conquering with a bow was Alexander the Great, known for riding a white horse and fighting with a bow; in fact, all the major players pointed out in the Greek kingdom fought with bows, Gog and Antiochus III the Great, the reason being because all of them is the Prince of Grecia, the fallen angel. 

 Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
   Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
 Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

I rest my case.

 

The defense moves for a mistrial.

[Ezra]

4 hours ago, WilliamL said:

We should not presume that the ones sitting on the horses are anything but powerful spirits allowed to infest the non-believers of the earth.

If you are referring to the Four Horsemen, they are personifications -- not spirits.  Death and Hades are personifications, and so are all the others.  Therefore they do not infest anyone.  They and their horses simply represent the conditions with which they are associated. 

[WilliamL]

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

If you are referring to the Four Horsemen, they are personifications -- not spirits.  Death and Hades are personifications, and so are all the others.  Therefore they do not infest anyone.  They and their horses simply represent the conditions with which they are associated. 

Rev. 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Personifications cast into the Lake of Fire? Don't think so. This is a non-biblical doctrine that you put forth.

The Beast, the False Prophet, the Devil, and all of their followers are cast into the Lake of Fire, and none of those are "personifications," they are spiritual beings.

Rev. 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.

Personifications are not given power, beings are. The riders upon the horses are collective spirits, akin to the multi-spirited entity "Legion" that inhabited the Gadarene demoniac, but of a much higher order.

[Ezra]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Personifications cast into the Lake of Fire?

Death and Hades riding on a pale horse?  Has anyone seen such a spectacle literally?  Will anyone see such a spectacle literally?  Yes, they are personifications as are all the other horsemen of the Apocalypse.

[missmuffet]

30 minutes ago, Ezra said:

Death and Hades riding on a pale horse?  Has anyone seen such a spectacle literally?  Will anyone see such a spectacle literally?  Yes, they are personifications as are all the other horsemen of the Apocalypse.

They are symbolic descriptions of different events that will take place during the tribulation.

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2016 at 7:29 AM, Marcus O'Reillius said:

Good question.

A little study of mine, which I will share here:

Breaking the seal and the calling out unleashes a character acting autonomously.  As each Horseman is called out, the pattern is repeated and another Living Creature in order says the very same; “Come!”  This also suggests some attributes that can be applied to the Horsemen by the nature of the creature that summons them.

 

            The Living Creatures order the Horsemen out in sequential fashion as well.  The faces of the four Living Creatures are: "lion," "ox," "man," and a "flying eagle."   These are the heavenly Creatures sheltering God, and thus they suggest qualities that belong to God.  One commentary suggests they represent the qualities of royal power, strength, spirituality, and swiftness of action.—EBCNT  If the Living Creatures represent these qualities, then the forces sent out mirror those attributes: power through knowledge, strength of might, human spirit, and rapidity in effect. 

 

^{Rev 6:2}I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

 

            The first seal poses the most problems for interpretation.  While the symbols are known, their application can be considered in two contrary manners.  The initial assessment of the first seal is that it is has no known correlation within the Bible.  Comparisons to Christ are incomplete but noted for the white horse, and the crown.  In the aspect of this horseman being representative of the Church, the weapon of war and conquest are incongruent.  In the opposing aspect, this is said to be a description of the false Christ.  The lion, the symbol of royalty, power, and might does the calling which lends additional support to a powerful conqueror-king.

 

The first Horseman is given a bow, a kingly weapon of power.  A bow is the only weapon that allows one to kill at a distance in this era.  He does not have any arrows to fire though, so this bow is not meant as a literal weapon of war, but a symbol of power.  This analogy of the bow to power is supported in the Bible. 

 

^{JOB 29:20}My glory will remain fresh in me,

 

the bow ever new in my hand.'

 

 

 

^{JOB 30:11} Now that God has unstrung my bow and afflicted me,

 

they throw off restraint in my presence.

 

 

 

^{JER 49:35}This is what the LORD Almighty says:

 

"See, I will break the bow of Elam,

 

the mainstay of their might.

 

So the bow can be thought of as the ability to project his power, but not necessarily conquering as with war. 

 

            The second issue is the crown.  This signifies victory, and accomplishment.  So the force that makes war possible does succeed without firing a shot.  Along with the crown is the color white.  This third aspect signifies goodness but also is the color of a victor.  So this first Horseman must be seen as beneficial, or desirable on one hand, and victorious on the other.  As a force, it can be expected to be able to project its power through its autonomous actions. 

 

            Two people the first Horseman is commonly thought to represent are the anti-Christ and Jesus.  These two wildly conflicting extremes of interpretation can both be nullified.  First, as the point of unsealing the Scroll is to unleash God’s Wrath upon the desolator from Daniel 9:27, to put the anti-Christ as the first Horseman has him participating in his own demise.  Logically, this would be like God sending out Pharaoh to be obstinate.  In that account, God hardened what naturally occurred in Pharaoh’s heart.  And from the point of view of the desolator, he could also foil God’s plan by failing to perform the task for which he was designated: to conquer. 

 

From 2^nd Thessalonians 2:7, the “one” blocks the anti-Christ from acting in his normal manner.  This one must be removed from the midst before the anti-Christ can act freely.  That is not part of the command here.  In addition, in Revelation 13:5 the anti-Christ is given authority for a limited time.  Both passages suggest a holding back of the anti-Christ with his natural disposition against God until a certain time, whereas the first Horseman is sent immediately out to do his role.  For the first identifiable person that this first Horseman could represent, the anti-Christ should be eliminated from consideration.  He is not “sent” by God.

 

The other interpretation has Christ as the first Horseman.  If Christ’s coming is indicated by the first Horseman, then with Jesus as the Lamb opening the Seal, He is effectively doubled.  Jesus cannot both break the Seal and come out from behind the Seal.  While Christ’s coming presages the rapture, to view the first Seal as representing this presents a contradiction in real terms because there is only one Christ.

I can see the interpretation of the seals bears on recognizing the manifestation. A view that might be simplistic, something I favor in interpretation, are the attributes of the first two seals. It seems to me the first two seals are connected and the second flows from the first. We see a conqueror in the first and peace taken from the earth in the second. Naturally a conqueror will remove peace if the actions of conquering are militaristic in nature.  If that's true, do we see a conqueror taking peace from the earth? I believe so.

If that's true, have we reached the full scope? Or are we thinking the actions are ramping up to the full meaning of the prophecy of the first two seals?

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2016 at 11:33 AM, missmuffet said:

By reading this it is very obvious to me that we have not experienced any of the seal judgments. It won't happen until after the rapture of the Church and that has not happened yet.

Question: "What are the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven bowls (vials) in the Book of Revelation?"

Answer: The seven seals (Revelation 6:1-17, 8:1-5), seven trumpets (Revelation 8:6-13; 11:15-19), and seven bowls/vials (Revelation 16:1-21) are three succeeding series of end-times judgments from God. The judgments get progressively worse and more devastating as the end times progress. The seven seals, trumpets, and bowls are connected to one another. The seventh seal introduces the seven trumpets (Revelation 8:1-5), and the seventh trumpet introduces the seven bowls (Revelation 11:15-19, 15:1-8).

The first four of the seven seals are known as the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The first seal introduces the Antichrist (Revelation 6:1-2). The second seal causes great warfare (Revelation 6:3-4). The third of the seven seals causes famine (Revelation 6:5-6). The fourth seal brings about plague, further famine, and further warfare (Revelation 6:7-8).

The fifth seal tells us of those who will be martyred for their faith in Christ during the end times (Revelation 6:9-11). God hears their cries for justice and will deliver it in His timing—in the form of the sixth seal, along with the trumpet and bowl judgments. When the sixth of the seven seals is broken, a devastating earthquake occurs, causing massive upheaval and terrible devastation—along with unusual astronomical phenomena (Revelation 6:12-14). Those who survive are right to cry out, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:16-17).

http://www.gotquestions.org/seven-seals-trumpets.html

From the reading it looks as though some of the seals could indeed be considered judgement even though the idea of judgement in the seals is absent. Moral judgements could indeed flow from the conditions released by the seals. True or not it's apparent the seals are conditions first and foremost that will come to pass. There is going to be conqueror. There is no mention of any type of judgement here, just that some conqueror will rise to conquer and in fact conquering.

The second is another condition supplanting an existing one. Peace is taken. New condition. Less peace to be had, perhaps no peace is left. Is this war or something else?

In the third conditions appear to be deteriorating. But I still see no mention of judgement even if we could construe this to be a judgement by rationalizing the earth is being punished through economic means for rampant immorality. But it's anything but clear.

We all think death is the ultimate judgement and that is true. But again no judgement is mentioned in the fourth seal. More accurately death is unleashed on the earth. Maybe in scope surpassing all wars combined. I think we are being told that a new condition of mass death is going to exist whether it's called judgement or not. However this seal is connected to the rest of the prophesied events in Rev concerning the death of billions and those certainly are the result of moral judgements by God on the rebellious people of earth.

The fifth seal is interesting and has nothing to do with judgement. This is a picture of the victorious saints that have found their reward and are safe in the bosom of the Lord.

And of course the sixth seal is the day of the Lord, but no judgement yet. This is the trailer for the judgements to come. The people of earth hide and fear what is to come because it hasn't happened yet, even though everyone is assured the age of man's rule is all but over. 

[Diaste]

On 8/18/2016 at 0:29 PM, missmuffet said:

But you are not seeing any of the Scriptures that I posted that are in Revelations. That is the Bible. It sounds like you definitely are limiting things in the Bible as well. You did not answer my question. Are you amillennial preterist?

But have we seen the first two seals opened? Perhaps we are seeing the precursor to the opening of the seals in action today? If that isn't true, and the seals have not opened, what clues could there be alerting us to the imminent opening of the scroll?