Women in Ministry

[Ovedya]

Also:

Because there is a need in our nation for people to speak up for the Lord and to address sin in our churches and to teach freedom for the captives and release for the prisoners and healing and forgiveness and repentance, but the men are not doing it.

Really??? According to whom, exactly? By what measure have you made this statement? According to what or whom are men not speaking up for the Lord or teaching freedom for the captives, etc.? How have you determined that there is a need for women to rise up and take over the ordained role of men in the church (with regard to teaching) because of the lack of men speaking for the Lord?

[Christ's Free Servant]

CFS,

Have I written in this thread that women could not prophesy?  In fact, I've said quite the opposite.  Please re-read my responses if you are having trouble understanding the points that I have made. 

Also, with regard to this statement:

Do you think that God could not speak to you through a woman if he could speak through a female donkey to Balaam?

Are you comparing women with a donkey?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ovedya,

The problem here is one of a breakdown of communication. I have read your responses thoroughly, but they are indicative of the fact that you have not read mine thoroughly. You keep accusing me of usurping authority over men when I have clearly pointed out to you that is not what I am doing nor is it what I desire to do. Now, I do believe that God has called me as one of his prophets, so in that case, I would be one of the exceptions we spoke of earlier. I do believe he has called me to lead his church, but I am still doing that under the authority of my husband in a co-leading position. He is and always be the final authority unless he is leading people into sin. So, I am acting in the proper line of authority set out by God. Yet, you still take issue with that. And, I am not even promoting that women in general be allowed to be in spiritual leadership positions over men. I do believe God has allowed for exceptions, but that has not even been my contention of this post.

I think where the breakdown of communication comes between us is in our interpretation of "Prophecy" as I earlier pointed out. You would have to go through the Bible, as I have done, and do a thorough study on the subject to see that when a prophet speaks he/she speaks with the full authority of God, she/he confronts, he/she rebukes, corrects, instructs, addresses sin, gives orders, gives warnings and consequences for disobedience, etc. This will come across strong and authoritative and "in your face," but it is of God, not of man, if it is truly done in the power and working of the Holy Spirit.

Again, all I can do is ask you to seek God in this and see what he shows you, not from your preconceived ideas of all this, but let him open your heart to see whether there is truth in what I am saying. Could I be so deceived and yet speak the truth of God so clearly? People who are deceived are the ones who are leading people away from God. I am leading them towards God. People who are deceived are telling people "it's ok to stay in your sin," but I am preaching repentance and I am confronting sin. You have to examine a person's life to see whether or not they are of God, and you can't really do that on here. So, all I can say is just ask God what he thinks about all of this. If you come to the same conclusion, then so be it. I am not going to convince you. Only God can do that.

[Christ's Free Servant]

Also:

Because there is a need in our nation for people to speak up for the Lord and to address sin in our churches and to teach freedom for the captives and release for the prisoners and healing and forgiveness and repentance, but the men are not doing it.

Really??? According to whom, exactly? By what measure have you made this statement? According to what or whom are men not speaking up for the Lord or teaching freedom for the captives, etc.? How have you determined that there is a need for women to rise up and take over the ordained role of men in the church (with regard to teaching) because of the lack of men speaking for the Lord?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correction: A lot of men are not doing it. And, no I am not the one determining this. God is. He is the one calling me to prophesy to the church. He is the one who showed me the lack of male leadership in the church in teaching the truths of God and his word and in confronting sin. I am just obeying him. I am just his messenger. You will have to take this up with him if you have issues.

[Guest jina]

Boy I guess this is as controversial as we can get huh? I can only give my opinion as to what the Bible says to me. As far as scripture it says clearly that men pastor. I have never been under a woman pastor and therefore I can offer no opinion either way there.I can say however I myself prefer a man to pastor our church. I feel in my heart that God did things for a reason. I am convinced that it is much easier for a man to follow another man's teaching rather than a woman's.

Our bible study is however led by a senior church member who is a woman. Where the mens bible study is led by a man.Our church does not allow for a woman pastor and I and our congregation is and has been fine with it. I have no doubt that the Lord has used many women in leadership in and out of the Bible. It is true that sometimes the Lord uses a woman where a man won't go. I have the utmost respect for women in ministry I however feel more comfortable with a man. I might be a bit old fashioned in the way I think and live. Thank you for taking the time to read a simple message from the heart.. In His service and love, Jina

[Christ's Free Servant]

Boy I guess this is as controversial as we can get huh? I can only give my opinion as to what the Bible says to me. As far as scripture it says clearly that men pastor. I have never been under a woman pastor and therefore I can offer no opinion either way there.I can say however I myself prefer a man to pastor our church. I feel in my heart that God did things for a reason. I am convinced that it is much easier for a man to follow another man's teaching rather than a woman's.

Our bible study is however led by a senior church member who is a woman. Where the mens bible study is led by a man.Our church does not allow for a woman pastor and I and our congregation is and has been fine with it. I have no doubt that the Lord has used many women in leadership in and out of the Bible. It is true that sometimes the Lord uses a woman where a man won't go. I have the utmost respect for women in ministry I however feel more comfortable with a man. I might be a bit old fashioned in the way I think and live. Thank you for taking the time to read a simple message from the heart.. In His service and love, Jina

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jina,

I agree with you. I don't think anyone on here is trying to force the issue of women in the pastorate, though I do believe God makes some exceptions for the reasons previously stated. I would prefer a male pastor. My husband has done the primary preaching in this ministry and I was more in a supportive role until recently. I did not feel comfortable in a pastoral role, but through a series of events and leadings of the Holy Spirit and confirmations through the members of our body of Christ, the Lord has led me to do more preaching and leading. But, I struggled with that for a very long time before I finally said "yes" to Jesus. To me, preaching and prophesying are one and the same. It is proclaiming the word of the Lord, etc. I believe the Lord raises up some women to prophesy. The whole point of this post was to try to get the men in leadership positions within their churches to open their minds and hearts to hear from God and to allow their "daughters" to prophesy. But, then it got into a whole difference of opinion on what it means to prophesy, etc. But, please know that this is not about women trying to usurp authority over men, ok? It is truly about letting them have the freedom in Christ to be who God created them to be and to use the gifts God gave them to use for his glory. That's all! It's about letting them obey God. Nothing more! I just want to obey God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let your daughters obey God!

[Ovedya]

The problem here is one of a breakdown of communication. I have read your responses thoroughly, but they are indicative of the fact that you have not read mine thoroughly.

Actually, I have read your posts thoroughly.

You keep accusing me of usurping authority over men when I have clearly pointed out to you that is not what I am doing nor is it what I desire to do.

No. That is not true. I never accused you of anything. I simply argued against some of the points you were making. And here is one of them that I strongly disagree with:

Now, I do believe that God has called me as one of his prophets, so in that case, I would be one of the exceptions we spoke of earlier. I do believe he has called me to lead his church, but I am still doing that under the authority of my husband in a co-leading position. He is and always be the final authority unless he is leading people into sin. So, I am acting in the proper line of authority set out by God. Yet, you still take issue with that.

What I take issue with is two things, actually. First, that a woman can "lead the church" in the traditional role of an elder - or pastor. Second, that we can excuse a woman who has placed herslef in such a role because she is "under her husband" or executive board of directors, ect., etc. This seems nothing more to me than trying to find a "loophole" in the Scriptures or to try and justify unbiblical actions. Where in the New Testament do you find a woman who serves as an overseer of the church? Where do you find that the Bible makes exception for women in an overseer position being under her husbands or an "executive director's" headship? Please do tell me, because honestly I cannot find a single verse that tells me that a woman is permitted to be an overseer/elder/pastor of the church. Now, there are deaconesses in the church, according to Romans 16:1, but these are the serving ones in the church under the elders and deacons.

And, I am not even promoting that women in general be allowed to be in spiritual leadership positions over men. I do believe God has allowed for exceptions, but that has not even been my contention of this post.

In your original post you wrote that,

It's because we (the church) have it all wrong. We think the church is supposed to have one preacher preach the sermon and it has to be a man, but that is not what the word of God teaches.

And I happen to agree with that. In fact, I believe that all the members should stand and preach the sermon, because that is what Paul outlined in 1 Cor. 14 with regard to prophesying. However, when it comes to the leadership in the church, when it comes to the defining of the church doctrines, and even when it comes to the proper teachings of the church, it is the men who should be taking the lead. I don't believe that there are any loopholes or excuses that we can make for various women - not speaking to you directly, mind you, but various women out there who have taken over the role of elder or pastor in a local congreagation. The Bible simply does not provide for it.

[Ovedya]

Also:

Because there is a need in our nation for people to speak up for the Lord and to address sin in our churches and to teach freedom for the captives and release for the prisoners and healing and forgiveness and repentance, but the men are not doing it.

Really??? According to whom, exactly? By what measure have you made this statement? According to what or whom are men not speaking up for the Lord or teaching freedom for the captives, etc.? How have you determined that there is a need for women to rise up and take over the ordained role of men in the church (with regard to teaching) because of the lack of men speaking for the Lord?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correction: A lot of men are not doing it. And, no I am not the one determining this. God is. He is the one calling me to prophesy to the church. He is the one who showed me the lack of male leadership in the church in teaching the truths of God and his word and in confronting sin. I am just obeying him. I am just his messenger. You will have to take this up with him if you have issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I truly hope that God will make this kind of revelation to all of us, CFS, not just to you. As I wrote earlier, I have no issues with you personally. Your original question in this thread was rhetorical: "What do you think...?" I have simply stated my opinion as best I could from what I have received from God's Word. I truly apologize if I have caused you any personal distress in this conversation. Perhaps there was a lack of communication or some misunderstanfings, I don't know.

This subject comes up pretty often in these forums, by the way, and a lot of people are divided on the issue. I just happen to be one of those that are more stoic in the analysis of these verses.

Much Grace,

~O

[Christ's Free Servant]

I truly apologize if I have caused you any personal distress in this conversation.  Perhaps there was a lack of communication or some misunderstanfings, I don't know.

This subject comes up pretty often in these forums, by the way, and a lot of people are divided on the issue.  I just happen to be one of those that are more stoic in the analysis of these verses.

Much Grace,

~O

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ovedya,

You have not caused me any personal distress in this conversation. I was inviting dialogue on this issue, but then I felt it was becoming argumentative and that we were not edifying each other nor would anyone else be edified by our banter. I don't like arguing. Never have! I do enjoy a good discussion if it can be fruitful, though. The purpose is to get people to think, to open their minds to other ideas or other ways of looking at things, but I can see that I have stepped in an area where, as you put it, you are "stoic in the analysis of these verses" where I am not. Please allow me to bow out of this diaglogue with you gracefully and let's put it to rest, ok? I have no desire to argue with anyone on here. That would not be fruitful and would benefit no one. That would defeat the purpose of the post.

[Guest Jacee]

I have said all I have to say also on this subject. But, I want to address one thing that Oveyda mentioned and that is that women were deceived by the serpent. And that is true. But, Adam despised his birthright. Which sin is greater?

[Ovedya]

I thought it was Esau that despised his birthright?

Besides, I don't believe that there are degrees to sin. You are either on the mark or our are not. Like they say, "Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades."