Defense for the Mass-Transit System Rapture

[Guest Robert]

3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Well, the answer is very simple.

In order to be made into the image and likeness of Christ, we must suffer in the same way that he did.

Then my question needs to be asked of you....are you above suffering in the same way Christ suffered?

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

But theres more to this, something to think about:

The word tribulation in Hebrew means narrow, a tight place, because it comes from the root word # 2346. thlibo thlee’-bo akin to the base of 5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively):--afflict, narrow throng, suffer, tribulation, trouble.

Now hopefully this will blow your mind.

Christ said something interesting

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and NARROW is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

So really what Christ is saying is the following

(Matthew) 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and TRIBULATION is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

TRIBULATION = NARROW = THE WAY THAT LEADS TO LIFE. (resurrection talk)

Do you know what the tightest place is on earth? Its the birth canal.

Matt 24:8

All these are the beginning of birth pains

Birth pains for what?

Something is going to be born and thats the one new man.

 

 

You assume the Tribulation is for the purpose of making believers "more like Christ". But Scripture clearly points that it is the time of God's wrath., not "shaping character". It is such a time of wrath that there has been nothing like it before, nor will there be again. Were it otherwise, then the Tribulation would have been going on since the time of the Cross (which is preterism), or that there would be entire generations of people who would not be "perfected", as they would have died before the Tribulation.

And to answer  your question: I have already suffered, more than most care to know. I still bear scars.

And no: your little supposition here does not "blow my mind", because Scripture plainly states that we will not be here to suffer God's wrath:

"For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

It does not mean "God's wrath against sin", because God is already angry concerning sin:

" God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day." (Psalm 7:11, NASB)

So, I suppose then that the church at Philadelphia should also remain for the Tribulation?

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Rev 3:10, NASB, emphasis mine)

You are committing eisegesis by assuming the Tribulation is a "birth canal" for the Church. The Church was born at Pentecost, not in the Tribulation. Some folks get the notion that "other generations have suffered, why wouldn't we?" and assume that since other generations had to suffer, that we must go through the Tribulation. What is being missed is the fact that what the previous generations went through was at the hands of man. The entire  Tribulation, from the first seal to the last bowl, is all God's wrath and demonstrably so in Revelation 6.

On another note: Hebrew? The NT (which you quoted) was written in Greek. The word for "tribulation" is the Greek word thlipsis,  which means "persecution, affliction, distress, tribulation " (Strong's 2347), which is the word used in Matthew 24:21:

" "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will." (Matthew 24:21, NASB)

When Jesus was talking about how "narrow is the way, that leads unto life", He is referencing the fact that people are goign to want to find another way into Heaven, but He's the only way in. That makes the path narrow indeed. If Jesus is the only way in, and you can only get into heaven by trusting in His sacrifice on the cross, then there's going to be a lot of folks out there whose pride cannot handle that. Compared to the Gospel, it's a lot wider and more broadly "traveled" to try to get in by good works, lists of rules, sheer willpower and self-effort, and "religions". And entering that "gate" is going to be difficult also because our own pride will want to resist it, thinking we have to somehow "add" to salvation or that Christ's sacrifice is somehow incomplete.

So then my question to you is this: Is Jesus' blood enough, or do you feel that you have to add to His sacrifice to make it complete?

If Christ's death on the cross could not redeem us in full, then how can Scripture say:

"For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity." (Ephesians 2:14-16, NASB, emphasis mine)

If Jesus' death on the Cross was not enough, then Scripture would not say "IS our peace".

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by RobertS

[WilliamL]

19 hours ago, RobertS said:

You [inchrist] are committing eisegesis by assuming the Tribulation is a "birth canal" for the Church. The Church was born at Pentecost, not in the Tribulation.

Yes, the Church was born long ago, but the birth pangs of Matt. 24:8 --

"All these things [false christs, wars, famines, pestilences] are the beginning of birth pangs"

-- speak of a new birth to come, that of our celestial bodies:

Rom. 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

2 Cor. 5:2 For in this [tent/tabernacle/body] we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.

God's relationship with his people is not static, but constantly progressing toward greater things for his faithful ones. The Church was born into a spiritual body; but the promise to come, the new birth to come, is that those who are ready will born into a light body.

19 hours ago, RobertS said:

What is being missed is the fact that what the previous generations went through was at the hands of man. The entire  Tribulation, from the first seal to the last bowl, is all God's wrath and demonstrably so in Revelation 6.

Revelation 6 reveals just the opposite. God's Wrath does not begin, that chapter tells us, until after the trials of the first five Seals. Only after the 6th Seal is opened, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysms take place, will commence "the Great Day of His Wrath." Or are you going to tell us that those of the 5th Seal, "slain for the Word of God and for the[ir] testimony," are killed by God's wrath?

Of course not, they are killed during the Tribulation caused by men, just as Matthew 24 tells us in the parallel passage:

Matt. 24:9 "Then they [men, unbelievers, not God] will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake."

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

I used to believe that the seven years of the 70th Seven (Week) of Daniel 9 was equivalent to the "tribulation" period. I've learned since then that it is NOT. Instead, the 70th Seven was SPLIT IN TWO when Yeshua` pronounced the household of the Jews of Jerusalem "desolate." (Matt. 23:37-39.) Instead of a single coming (advent), it became TWO advents (as was prophesied, the "Messiah the son of Joseph [Jacob's son]" and the "Messiah the son of David"). And, in so doing, they became the "bookends" ON EITHER END of the "tribulation."

It's the time of "JACOB'S Trouble," and it's been occurring since the first century A.D! Immediately AFTER the "tribulation," shall be the signs in the sun, moon, and stars! The Son of man shall return and again offer the Kingdom to Israel at a time when He's most needed, and this time, they will accept Him as their King.

When you can accept that basic structure to the events of prophecy, then things will fall into place for you.

[Guest Robert]

13 hours ago, inchrist said:

Thats assuming none of the seals have begun yet? 

 

 

We all have, but to death? no, as we wouldnt be speaking right now.

 

 

My apologies, we do make mistakes, I meant Greek, however you're ignoring its root word.

# 2346. thlibo thlee’-bo akin to the base of 5147; to crowd (literally or figuratively):--afflict, narrow throng, suffer, tribulation, trouble.

Narrow/ tribulation.

Let me give you the Hebrew word, since there shouldnt be any objections translating Greek to Hebrew? After all our Messiah was Hebrew.

Hebrew word for tribulation is seen in the Strong’s Concordance as follows:

#6862 tsar tsar or tsar {tsawr}; from 6887; narrow; (as a noun) a tight place (usually figuratively, i.e. trouble); also a pebble (as in 6864); (transitive) an opponent (as crowding):--adversary, afflicted(-tion), anguish, close, distress, enemy, flint, foe, narrow small, sorrow, strait, tribulation, trouble.

Narrow/tribulation/ tight place

Scriptually one can accurately read Matthew 7:14 as the following 

Because strait is the gate, and TRIBULATION is the way, which leads unto life, and few there be that find it.

TRIBULATION = NARROW = THE WAY THAT LEADS TO LIFE. (resurrection talk)

 

Daniel 12:10 tells us the purpose of the Tribulation

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 11:18 tells us the purpose of the wrath 

And the nations were angry, and your wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that you should give reward unto your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

In other words we saints are not appointed to Gods wrath as we are not appointed to be destroyed as per Revelation 11:18, however we are appointed to obtain salvation through TRIBULATION as per Daniel 12:10.

 

 

but the church is also destined to die and be resurrected and changed.

Matt 24:8 states it as such

All these are the beginning of birth pains

And Romans 8:23

Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

And also in 1st Timothy 2:15 

Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 

 

No it doesnt state that, the verse simply states the following:

that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come."

I dont see taken to heaven in that verse you provided.

Which leaves us with the crux of our argument

A.  We will not be there for that wrath, or

B.  We will be divinely protected from that wrath.

Im very happy to even go through the ancient hebrew wedding custom if you want.

None of the seals have begun yet. This planet hasn't seen the kind of Tribulation mention in Scripture: what we're seeing now is nothing compared to what the tribulation will hold.

Concerning your comment of suffering "to death": no, but then, not every saint who ever died did so in martyrdom either. Are they disqualified in your book? Was the thief on the Cross disqualified because he was suffering for his own crimes and not suffering as a martyr?

As for your interpretation of Revelation: then you are breaking Scripture, claiming that Christ's sacrifice was not enough. And you are breaking Scripture in Ephesians 2 where we are told by FAITH and not by works are we saved. Either Christ's blood was enough to save completely, or not at all; otherwise, how do you explain Jesus' words to the thief who was also crucified with him? He wasn't suffering for the Lord, but for his own crimes.

Concerning the word thilipsis: the word meaning depends upon how it is used in the sentence; all you're doing is just looking up the root word for it without regard in how it is used in the Greek, which is a major mistake. The meaning needs to be pulled from the actual word used in the sentence and not merely the root word, which can alter depending upon usage and intent in Koine Greek. And in this usage, the way is narrow not because it is a "birth canal" (Christ says "born again" not "being born again" in scripture of believers), but because the way is made that difficult by sin and our own nature.

Also, your comment "The church is destined to die" directly contradicts Scripture:

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NASB, emphasis mine)

As long as even one member of the Church is alive, the Church is alive. And the term "we" is used, meaning more than just one.

Concerning your last comment: Revelation 19 tells of the wedding of the Lamb, then the return of Christ and the church from Heaven. I already covered this in a previous post, so no: I do not need you to explain the Hebrew wedding ceremony to me, thanks.  Scripture clearly states we will not be here for the wrath:

1) 1 Thessalonians states that Jesus will deliver us "from the wrath to come", not "protect us through it": " For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come. " (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, NASB, emphasis mine)

2) Revelation 3 states that "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (Rev. 3:10, NASB, emphasis mine)

3) Revelation 6 clearly states after the seals are broken: "and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  (Revelation 6:16-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

4) 1 Thessalonians 5 not only states we are not appointed to wrath, but is in the discussion about the time of the Tribulation:

"Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

The "Day of the Lord" has always been a reference to an extensive time of judgment on this planet (references: Isaiah 2:12-21; 13:9-16; Joel 1:15-2:11; 28-32; 3:9-12; Amos 5:18-20; Obadiah 15-17 and Zephaniah 1:7-8). Paul knew these references very well, and was calling back to them in mentioning the Day of the Lord. Which brings another problem: if we are "children of the light" and will not be overtaken by that day (taken by surprise), then how can you say we will be here for it? Not to mention that we are told that we would "not know the day or the hour", yet at some point, were we to be on Earth for the Tribulation, we would know exactly when Jesus would arrive for us. So, why would Paul mention about us begin "not destined to wrath to wrath" if it had nothing to do with the question the Thessalonians had asked to begin with?

 

I'm sorry, but God's not a sadist. When people suffered for the faith in the past, it wasn't God hurting them. It was man.

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

10 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

When misguided post-trib advocates say that Age of Grace believers are somehow carried into the Tribulation despite God's promises that they will not be, you abandon scripture at that point.

8 hours ago, inchrist said:

See this is where the problem lies, no where does God state the church is exempt from going through the tribulation.

Exactly. As long as pre-tribbers go on repeating their old mantra that "the Wrath is the Tribulation," without a scintilla of scriptural evidence to support this belief, they will remain blind to the sequence of events in the End Times.

10 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

..."We" do not defeat the enemy.  That is not our purpose, or our destiny.  As Christ's Church, we are called upon to spread the Gospel.  It is Christ who defeats the enemy.  Perhaps you need to reflect on who possesses the ultimate power and the ultimate victory, because neither one of those issues is based on mankind.  

Rev. 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the Accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

This is how we defeat the enemy: by overcoming [νικάω nikáō, nik-ah'-o; from G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):—conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory] him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of our testimony.

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

 "the Wrath is the Tribulation,"

Agreed.  This confusion in terminology is the cornerstone fallacy on which the rest of the pretrib fallacy is built.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Last Daze

[Ezra]

45 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Agreed.  This confusion in terminology is the cornerstone fallacy on which the rest of the pretrib fallacy is built.

The so-called "pretrib fallacy" is the only teaching that makes perfect theological sense.

[Last Daze]

12 minutes ago, Ezra said:

The so-called "pretrib fallacy" is the only teaching that makes perfect theological sense.

Yes, I'm sure it is.  Have a great day.

[WilliamL]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

As long as pre-tribbers go on repeating their old mantra that "the Wrath is the Tribulation," without a scintilla of scriptural evidence to support this belief, they will remain blind to the sequence of events in the End Times.

2 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Agreed.  This confusion in terminology is the cornerstone fallacy on which the rest of the pretrib fallacy is built.

1 hour ago, Ezra said:

The so-called "pretrib fallacy" is the only teaching that makes perfect theological sense.

It may make perfect theological sense, as long as one's theology is not scriptural.

The challenge has been long-stated on this board for anyone to show scriptures that say that the Wrath of God comes during the Great Tribulation: but this has never been scripturally shown. All that has been provided is rationalizations of men, doctrines of men. I've already made such a challenge to pre-tribbers at least twice during this string, and it has been ignored.

What the scriptures do show, in many places, such as Matt. 24, Heb. 12, and Rev. 6, is that the Wrath of God only comes after the manifestation of great heavenly and earthly cataclysms; whereas the Tribulation comes before those cataclysms, and before the Wrath.

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by WilliamL

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom to all.

Okay, this nonsense about "tribulation" vs. "wrath" needs to stop. Just BE REAL! It's true that the Greek word "thlipsis" (often translated as "tribulation") means "pressure"; that is, a "tight spot," and the "distress" in which such a spot can put a person.

"Wrath" is the consequences of God's anger against sin. God doesn't put up with sin forever. Eventually (although He IS longsuffering), He lashes out against that sin. Now, if a person is still ATTACHED to that sin, then he or she is caught in the fallout. God hates sin, but He loves the sinner - the person - and wants that person to be safe from His wrath. Therefore, He sent His Word to become the Son of God and die as our sins upon the cross in our place. He DETACHES us from the sin which has the consequences of death by the Great Exchange.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ (in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
KJV

The words "reconciled," "reconciliation," "reconciling," "reconciliation," and "reconciled" come from these Greek words respectively:
"katallaxantos," "katallagees," "katallassoon," "katallagees," and "katallageete."

These words come from...

NT:2643 katallagee (kat-al-lag-ay'); from NT:2644; exchange (figuratively, adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor:
KJV - atonement, reconciliation (-ing).

NT:2644 katallassoo (kat-al-las'-so); from NT:2596 and NT:236; to change mutually, i.e. (figuratively) to compound a difference:
KJV - reconcile.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, these words are seen nowhere better than in the wording of verse 21:

"He (God the Father) hath made Him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin;
that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him (the Messiah)."

While on the cross, He became "our sin."
We become "His righteousness," or rather, "God's righteousness within Him." 
THAT'S the "Great Exchange!"

It's not a "fair exchange," but it is a "JUST exchange." Yeshua` the Messiah didn't get NEARLY as much out of the exchange as He should have, but He provided the way to fellowship with His Father, meeting the requirements of Torah, and satisfying ADONAI.

Now, if we can all agree to that, THEN we have a basis for further discussion regarding "tribulation" and "wrath." Do we have an accord so far?