Running Gator Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.67 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 4 minutes ago, artsylady said: It's easy for people to keep missing this point, over and over and over again. It's easy for people (even Christians) to think of natives as second class citizens, lump them all together, and figure they don't have rights to protest for clean water and their ancient burial grounds. If it was white farmers who were having the exact same problem right now, all of America would be behind them supporting them. You mean like the white farmers that took over the government building in Oregon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 14 hours ago, ayin jade said: One video claimed that native americans were the first environmentalists or were very concerned with protection of the environment. They lost credibility with me on the basis of being agenda driven. I know of many instances in which natives destroyed the environment in large ways. So quite frankly Im not interested in the videos. I didn't think so. It's too bad you are so close minded. You might learn something new or thought of this issue in a different light. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 I 14 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said: Not a very complete assesment. Grants: That money doesn't just drop out of the sky, typically it is funded by taxpayers, so grants can add to costs as much as reduce costs, and no guarantees that we will get anything for our money. Where I live, the cost of tax and a gallon of gasoline, it over 40 cents, that is more than the oil company makes on it, more that the fuel station makes on it. The govenment is the biggest profiteer on fuel. Gas will of course, continue to go up, because costs go up, not just on petroleum, but on most everything. Looking at it another way, decades ago, I could buy 5 gallons of gasoline for 1 hour's wages. Now, in spite of the fact that production expenses have gone up due to increased costs due to regulation, and various compliance laws, additional taxes, etc. I can buy about 10 gallons of fuel for an hour's work. Add to that, that modern cars are so efficient, that they go twice as far on a gallon of gas as they did decades ago, so the cost of driving, due to fuel cost, has gone way down, not up! Oil is not a renewable resource? There is even debate on that. There is a theory, that petroleum is not the fossil fuel that it is thought to be, but that some undiscovered process in the Earth, creates oil. What ever the source is, the prediction I recall, that our oil reserves would be depleted before the end of the 20th century, did not come to pass, in fact, we have quite a lot of proven, economically recoverable petroleum, and we would have more, if we were allowed to drill for it. Additionally, we already have viable petroleum alternatives, but we are not allowed to go after much of the high grade coal and natural gas, nor use nuclear energy, even though it is efficient and safer statistically, than petroleum. And what about gas prices, do you even understand who sets them? Ultimately, the consumer does! Oil futures are sold on the open market, to the highest bidders. That means that people are buying oil, that has not yet even been drilled/refined. These people and corporations, are essentially betting on how much money they think they can sell it for. Everytime we consumers get in our motothomes or family cars to go on a vacation, every time we buy a car that is not a pure economy car, every time we fail to car pool, or reduce the number of short trips we make, everytime we drive at speeds that are not as economical as they could be, you get the idea, we are telling the oil speculators that we are willing to buy more gasoline. When we tell them the price is too high (by our unwillingness to be wasteful) we let them know it is too expensive. Then, they bid less, and the price falls. The consumers control the price of oil. The economics of petroleum fuel is not based on the lack of alternatives, it is based on the demand that we created, more than any other factor, and secondly, by the restrictions place on us and on the industry, by those we elect to represent us in government. I really hate repeating myself so I won't, but I've ALREADY addressed pretty much ALL of what you said here, sometimes more than once, and am not going to repeat it again. The fact is, price of oil will KEEP GOING UP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted September 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, artsylady said: It's easy for people to keep missing this point, over and over and over again. It's easy for people (even Christians) to think of natives as second class citizens, lump them all together, and figure they don't have rights to protest for clean water and their ancient burial grounds. If it was white farmers who were having the exact same problem right now, all of America would be behind them supporting them. See, I think everyone should be treated equally, as citizens of our country. The past is the past. There are farmers of all races who are forced to sell their land for the building of roads, cities, pipelines, etc. Race should not play a part, there is a system, whether just or not, that all must follow. Breaking the law, trespassing, threatening violence and then claiming to be a victim only works when the media plays along with the offenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, Out of the Shadows said: You mean like the white farmers that took over the government building in Oregon? What is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 1 minute ago, hmbld said: See, I think everyone should be treated equally, as citizens of our country. The past is the past. There are farmers of all races who are forced to sell their land for the building of roads, cities, pipelines, etc. Race should not play a part, there is a system, whether just or not, that all must follow. Breaking the law, trespassing, threatening violence and then claiming to be a victim only works when the media plays along with the offenders. We should be thanking them for saving our water. Do you like oil spills? Are you aware of the catastrophic damage they can cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted September 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, artsylady said: The court system is not perfect. The government is not perfect. It can go into a country, invade the people living there, massacre them, take their land, make them dependent on paper money, give them land, take their land away and when they have a problem in fighting for water, ignore them or side with the big oil company. Peoples all over the world have been invaded and lose their land. This is the United States now, everyone has equal opportunity to work, and especially here they have opportunity to hear the truth of God. Creating a system where people feel they are victims and are owed something makes them dependent, not independent. Big oil gets their way in a lot of situations, nothing to do with a peoples race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Gator Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member * Followers: 8 Topic Count: 91 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 10,596 Content Per Day: 3.67 Reputation: 2,743 Days Won: 25 Joined: 06/16/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, artsylady said: What is your point? You said this, and I quote " If it was white farmers who were having the exact same problem right now, all of America would be behind them supporting them. " We had some white farmers/ranchers who were having some similar problems not long ago. Did you find that all of America was behind them supporting them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artsylady Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 171 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,813 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 150 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/26/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 17, 2016 14 hours ago, ayin jade said: http://www.npr.org/2016/09/12/493532162/n-d-pipeline-protester-its-about-our-rights-as-native-people From npr which is quite liberal and quite native rights friendly, and they say that is the prime reason. I can find lots of quotes on extremist sites, but I dont like to use questionable sites. They only started claiming water issues when the non native environmentalists started claiming it. http://www.kgw.com/money/ore-tribes-send-support-to-standing-rock-oil-pipeline-protest/313866903 So you can see here what their reasoning is. The cultural and heritage resources. Not water issues. Not environmental concerns. BOTH of these quotes talk about water, and then you say it's not about water issues. I can't help you Ayin Jade. You refuse to watch the videos and then post quotes that mention water and say water isn't an issue. To me, you are a lost cause on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted September 17, 2016 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted September 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, artsylady said: We should be thanking them for saving our water. Do you like oil spills? Are you aware of the catastrophic damage they can cause? Yeah all the oil my grandparents dumped on the ground when they changed oil and all the oil that has dripped onto the roadways, well, it came from the ground so I guess it wanted to go back to the ground! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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