Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[christiang]

All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])

The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])

For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal.  (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

Even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of man, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth terrible plagues against Egypt,

"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth terrible judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])

Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

Along with other judgments he will bring forth upon the earth, all to demonstrate his great power, and to also eventually reduce all the wicked to mere ashes,

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])

And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

And also demonstrate his love,

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

And as such, even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or dear, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])

Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of

the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

And as such, all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

 

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God decides to show mercy to,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And as such, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God,

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

[markdohle]

To talk of sin implies 'choice', you take that away.  I admire you knowledge of scripture, but one reason Christianity is such a Tower of Babel today is that everyone and his grandmother is an expert on scripture and find any number of quotes to back up their position.

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

It also says that God wills the salvation of all.......one thing about this kind of quotes and theology, it always brought out by those who are 'elect'.....Jesus must weep at us.  Thank God, we are judged by Him and not by any human being.  We make salvation as something like belonging to a "country club" and only those predestined by birth can enter.

If we understood the love that God as for us as revealed in Jesus Christ, we would not speak so lightly about hell and who goes there......we are told not to judge for a reason, we are really bad at it. 

May I make a suggestion.  find quotes that go against what you have stated above, and then post your thoughts on them.

 

Peace
Mark



 

 

 

[markdohle]

3 minutes ago, Yowm said:

To the OP: It was determined by God from the beginning that whosoever believes in God's Son shall be saved. That coin is still in the air.

I like that, very concise.

[christiang]

31 minutes ago, Yowm said:

To the OP: It was determined by God from the beginning that whosoever believes in God's Son shall be saved. That coin is still in the air.

Yet is it God that determines how the coin will fall,

Quote

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Pierre

     God certainly knows where they will fall,indeed but are you not considering FREE WILL.....God knows a mans heart& I believe He does know what our choices will be but do you really think He determines what are choices are?    Your Scripture verses are not only taken out of context but they area also not applicable to support your thinking,imo

[christiang]

5 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Blessings Pierre

     God certainly knows where they will fall,indeed but are you not considering FREE WILL.....God knows a mans heart& I believe He does know what our choices will be but do you really think He determines what are choices are?    Your Scripture verses are not only taken out of context but they area also not applicable to support your thinking,imo

There is no free will as that is a false teaching taught by men. Although man has a will, whatever choices a man makes, were appointed by God to be made. So whether you decide to run left, or you decide to run right, it was because God first determined for you to do so. These scriptures teach exactly what they teach concerning predestination, and you either believe the scriptures concerning this, or you do not. This is why the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, for when you come to understand that all things happen by his determination, can you then fear God and begin to attain actual wisdom. No man that does not understand predestination can have understanding of God.

[kwikphilly]

 

Proverbs 16:9 - A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Joshua 24:15 - And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

John 7:17 - If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

John 1:12-13 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:   (Read More...)

2 Timothy 2:26 - And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Galatians 5:16-17 - [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.   (Read More...)

Romans 10:9-10 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.   (Read More...)

Genesis 2:16-17 - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:   (Read More...)

Psalms 37:23 - The steps of a [good] man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:   (Read More...)

Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Mark 8:34 - And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Ezekiel 18:30-32 - Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

              Unless you do not believe that the Scriptures are Inspired by God & God Breathed .....well,what can I say?God says a man's  heart  deviseth his way,man did not say that,,,God does

       Your implications would have us believe we are mere puppets,robotic creatures with no mind of our own ........&no true LOVE for God,only to do what we are programmed to do          not true,I still do not see your support,only your personal opinion

[kwikphilly]

Quote

This is why the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, for when you come to understand that all things happen by his determination, can you then fear God and begin to attain actual wisdom. No man that does not understand predestination can have understanding of God.                            Pierre

Why fear,why would you need Wisdom if your life was going to end up right where it was pre-determined to end up

Quote

choose you this day whom ye will serve;                                     From Joshua 24:15

Why would God ask you to choose to serve Him or give you a choice if you had none,,,,,,there is no sense in that

[christiang]

1 minute ago, kwikphilly said:

Why fear,why would you need Wisdom if your life was going to end up right where it was pre-determined to end up

Why would God ask you to choose to serve Him or give you a choice if you had none,,,,,,there is no sense in that

All men do have a choice, but what a man chooses is determined by God. Creation is made for the glory of God, and he does whatever he wants with it, and he has mercy on whom he has mercy, and compassion on whom he has compassion,

Quote

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])

 

[kwikphilly]

Perhaps you are confusing predetermination with predestination,let's be clear

Quote

Predestination is a see also of predeterminism.

Predestination is a see also of predeterminism.

 

As nouns the difference between predestination and predeterminism

is that predestination is (theology) the doctrine that everything has been foreordained by a god, especially that certain people have been elected for salvation, and sometimes also that others are destined for reprobation while predeterminism is the belief that all events that occur have already been determined.